PrC for monk / ninja build

[Torvon]

(1) I played a Swordsage recently and stopped playing him after a few weeks. He was way too strong compared to the other characters in the group, and often did 50-70 damage per round (level 8). So I'd like to play something less crazy. The only thing from TOB I intend to use is superior unarmed strike (feat).

(2) Invisible fist Monk ACF is awesome - frankly, a bit too awesome. Turn invisible every third round as immediate action, umm. Pretty much insanely overpowered ^^. Thank you for linking to these ACF threads, I wasn't aware of them! As for Ninja ACFs, they all lose Ghost Step ... which I'm not ready to give up. It's the only reliable way Ninjas have to use their sudden strike.

[linklord231]

  Swordsage was too strong for the group?  What was the party composition?

[zook1shoe]

Ninja of the Crescent Moon (Sword and Fist)
Ninja Spy (Oriental Adventures)

these have really good flavor, and probably are similar to what you want

[Torvon]

Swordsage was too strong for the group?  What was the party composition?

Mostly non-optimized characters ^^ ...

Ninja of the Crescent Moon is lovely, thanks for pointing that one out. It advances monk armor and sneak attack, and has some nice flavors to it. Nice!
Ninja Spy is great too, but Cha is my only dump stat, so I won't be able to qualify for bluff10 and disguise7.

[zugschef]

Swordsage was too strong for the group?  What was the party composition?

Mostly non-optimized characters ^^ ...

you don't have to optimize to make a druid, wizard or cleric who outperforms any swordsage build.

[zook1shoe]

Yw, and those don't require much optimization to be effective in that sort of game

you can still get ranks in those skills, it just is a "waste" of points

[Concerned Ninja Citizen]

Swordsage was too strong for the group?  What was the party composition?

Mostly non-optimized characters ^^ ...

you don't have to optimize to make a druid, wizard or cleric who outperforms any swordsage build.

You don't have to optimize in the sense of going splatbook diving or running a complicated build but you do have to know which are the good (or at least the mediocre) choices and which are the bad ones. A druid who takes a hawk animal companion and forgets they can cast spells (and this is an example from a real game) may well trail behind a decent swordsage build. Wizards are even easier to screw up.

[zugschef]

casting fuckin' web or sleet storm at level 3 is not optimizing. btw, if a player starts with a hawk ac, he will sooner or later find out that his ac contributes nada in combat apart from flanking. then he just sends the hawk away and gets some other animal. and a druid who doesn't cast spells... that's not non-optimized, that's either stupid or totally inexperienced with the game. in both cases the player can at any time start using spells and doesn't care if he took lightning reflexes and alertness.

that said, i don't get what this thread is really about. Torvon, you ask for help building your character, yet you don't want to optimize. this seems really odd. also, i don't know which opponents you're fighting in this campaign, but an ascetic stalker without stuff like invisible fist will be outperformed by any single class rogue or barbarian, which is normally the first sign for complete and utter fail. fail in the sense of: you will be sorry that you did this.

[Concerned Ninja Citizen]

Those things are stupid from our perspective, sure, and yet players do them and continue doing them over long campaigns because the rest of the party (and the monsters) are also non optimized.

Even if they do remember their spells, those players often won't cast (or prepare) web (you have to anchor it at both ends and that's too much effort to figure out) or sleet storm (it hampers their vision too and they want to beat face) or similarly effective spells. 

This isn't really on topic for the thread, though.

[Torvon]

Yw, and those don't require much optimization to be effective in that sort of game

you can still get ranks in those skills, it just is a "waste" of points

I think I didn't mention this in my original post, but it'a a fairly RP heavy group, low magic campaign (about 8000GP at level 7). As to your question, Zugschefs: I wrote this post to see what is possible, and then can decide what we (DM + me) consider balanced enough for this group and that campaign.

Once I encountered the Tortle race (DR 315), I just could not possibly pass up on that race for a monk/ninja. +2Con +2Wis, -2Dex -2Cha.
You wouldn't do that in any optimization heavy group, I guess, although the +3 AC are nice. However, they also only have 20 movement.

After adjustments: STR18(+1 lvl4, +2 gauntlets), DEX14, CON14, INT12, WIS16, CHA6.

Trying to get the character less MAD is difficult. I will reduce CON a bit using a trait: +10 movement and -1 HP per level (basically trading back the -10 movement from Tortle and +2 CON).

I guess there are two ways to make it less MAD:
* DEX:
Weapon Finesse and going for Dex (2 weapon fighting) build doesn't really work with a -2 DEX race.
* WIS: STR2, DEX14, CON14, INT12, WIS21 (+1 level4, +2 periapt), CHA6.
I guess about intuitive attack (attack with WIS instead STR) would be a good way to go. It would give me substantially more AC, a larger KI pool (Ninja), a higher DC for stunning fist. The trade-off, however, is: 1 feat, -3 damage per attack, and lower climb/jump values (which really is important for my build).

Opinions?

Thanks
Ta-ta
 T.

[Jackinthegreen]

Regarding climb and jump, there's a feat called Agile Athlete that makes those two skills key off Dex instead of Str.  Personally, I think it should be given as a bonus feat to ninjas because it's so iconic.

If you're worried about damage, there's the Ki Smite feat from Dragon 351 that allows you to spend a use of your Ki pool to add Wis to the next attack roll and your ninja level + your current Ki pool to damage.  Got Intuitive Strike?  Now it's Wisx2 for attack.  Take a look at the bottom post of http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2823.0 to see which feats might work for you.

You could also go ranged with Zen Archery, and thus throw a bunch of shuriken or something.  Flurry of Blows and Rapid Shot work with throwing shuriken.

[Torvon]

Regarding climb and jump, there's a feat called Agile Athlete that makes those two skills key off Dex instead of Str.  Personally, I think it should be given as a bonus feat to ninjas because it's so iconic.

If you're worried about damage, there's the Ki Smite feat from Dragon 351 that allows you to spend a use of your Ki pool to add Wis to the next attack roll and your ninja level + your current Ki pool to damage.  Got Intuitive Strike?  Now it's Wisx2 for attack.  Take a look at the bottom post of http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2823.0 to see which feats might work for you.

Thank you. I read the 2 ninja and a few monk handbooks before posting, but it was good to take another look.
* Agile Athlete: yup, I know, but pay 1 feat for intuitive attack and then pay another feat to adjust for the drawback in skills is nothing I can afford ...
* Ki Smite (why did they choose this confusing name ...): for one KI usage, I get around 5(ninja)+4(avg ki pool)=9 damage. That's not bad, but using this for ghost step instead means an average of 11.5 damage + I cannot be hit (every time I smite I have one usage less of ghost step). So I don't think the feat is worth it really. Admittedly, you also hit with a higher likelihood, thereby improving your average damage. Still, I don't think it's worth a feat.

What about the feat Enduring Ki - people often recommend it, but all it does is have your ki abilities last 2 rounds instead of 1 with the costs of 2 ki points (without the feat you have exactly the same effect, you use 1 ki point and get the ability 1 round, then you do it again next round).

[ksbsnowowl]

if a player starts with a hawk ac, he will sooner or later find out that his ac contributes nada in combat apart from flanking.

As a Tiny creature, a hawk has no threatened area, and therefore cannot flank... 

But your point is still valid.

I had two players in my Gestalt Viking game, that as first level characters (Druid//Fighter and Druid//Ranger), BOTH took hawk Animal Companions.  I just had to metaphorically roll my eyes.  The Druid//Fighter's hawk died to a Feral Tasloi, who improved grabbed it off the AoO the hawk provoked for entering the Tasloi's space to attack it (up in a tree).

[Jackinthegreen]

What about the feat Enduring Ki - people often recommend it, but all it does is have your ki abilities last 2 rounds instead of 1 with the costs of 2 ki points (without the feat you have exactly the same effect, you use 1 ki point and get the ability 1 round, then you do it again next round).

Enduring Ki means you don't have to spend another swift action to stay invisible.  A lot of magic items (among other things) have swift action activation, so Enduring Ki helps give you more flexibility with your actions.  Plus it means you stay invisible at the start of the next round instead of becoming visible just as you use it again.

Since you're in a low magic game, it might not provide much for you.  But, if you're worried about being seen between uses then it's a good feat.

[JaronK]

Ninja of the Crescent Moon is lovely, thanks for pointing that one out. It advances monk armor and sneak attack, and has some nice flavors to it. Nice!
Ninja Spy is great too, but Cha is my only dump stat, so I won't be able to qualify for bluff10 and disguise7.

What does Cha being your dump stat have to do with anything?  All that matters is your skill ranks, which have nothing to do with Charisma.

And Ninja Spy really does fit perfectly with a Monk/Ninja hybrid idea.  Of course, so does Shou Disciple... and the combination would let you flurry with the interesting exotic weapons that NS gives you.

JaronK

[zook1shoe]

Hengeyokai dog or sparrow?

that's a way to be sneaky, without alot of investment

[Torvon]

What does Cha being your dump stat have to do with anything?  All that matters is your skill ranks, which have nothing to do with Charisma.

And Ninja Spy really does fit perfectly with a Monk/Ninja hybrid idea.  Of course, so does Shou Disciple... and the combination would let you flurry with the interesting exotic weapons that NS gives you.

I have a limited amount of skills points. These need to be invested heavily into tumble, sleight of hand, hide, and move silently. Some need to be invested into climb, jump, balance, spot and listen. At level 6, which I currently am, with 2 levels monk and 4 levels ninja, in a build with 12 intelligence, that's very, very difficult to manage.

Where the heck should I get 17 (!!) skill points from for bluff10 and disguise 7, that will be totally wasted because with Cha6 I will still be an abysmal lyer and disguiser? That was my point, sorry if I didn't make that clear.

I agree that Ninja Spy is amazing (in fact I would sooo much love to take it), but I really don't see any way of qualifying. In addition, it does cost a useless feat (dodge), and worst of all, it requires the evasion class feature which is replaced by the monk ACF "invisible fist". It's probably one of the best ACF in the whole game --- invisibility without limits every three rounds for one full round as immediate action?! Yes please.


As for the Hengeyokai suggestion: it has -2 Wisdom.

My Monk/Ninja build uses Wisdom for attack rolls, AC, ninja ki pool, stunning fist DC, and of course will saves and some skills. It's really the only stat I cannot possibly sacrifice.

ta-ta
T.

[zook1shoe]

Kung Fu Genius gives Int as the monk stat

[Torvon]

Kung Fu Genius gives Int as the monk stat

The good thing about ninja / monk is that both use wisdom ... don't see why I should change one of them to Int
Also, Intuitive Attack allows me to dump STR and focus on WIS, I think that's the best way to reduce monk MAD, especially combined with ninja.

[zook1shoe]

I wasn't sure if it specified monk only