PrC for monk / ninja build

[SorO_Lost]

I think I didn't mention this in my original post, but it'a a fairly RP heavy group, low magic campaign (about 8000GP at level 7). As to your question, Zugschefs: I wrote this post to see what is possible, and then can decide what we (DM + me) consider balanced enough for this group and that campaign.

Just ignore him. He appears to be bitching about the lack of Unarmed Swordsage which isn't at all what we try to do here.

Shiba Protector s a very nice PrC out of OA. It adds your Wisdom Mod to Attack/Damage and Passive Way Monk gives you [Combat] Expertise which helps entry. If your starting high enough in level, really Wisdom is the only real stat you'll need to focus on, everything else is just gravy

Oh I think it was passively mentioned by pointing you to Monk ACFs, but Invisible Fist is amazing and very in tune with what you have going on.

[Torvon]

Shiba Protector s a very nice PrC out of OA. It adds your Wisdom Mod to Attack/Damage and Passive Way Monk gives you [Combat] Expertise which helps entry. If your starting high enough in level, really Wisdom is the only real stat you'll need to focus on, everything else is just gravy

Oh I think it was passively mentioned by pointing you to Monk ACFs, but Invisible Fist is amazing and very in tune with what you have going on.

The class is nice, but needs 3 feats (two of which are utterly crappy) to qualify: Alertness, Expertise, Iron Will. 

I get Wisdom to attack rolls with one feat (intuitive attack from BOED), and don't think it's worth to pay two more feats to get wisdom to damage.

[littha]

I get Wisdom to attack rolls with one feat (intuitive attack from BOED), and don't think it's worth to pay two more feats to get wisdom to damage.

Remember that +1 to damage is basically the same as increasing the size of one of your damage die by 1 and +3 damage is similar to adding a d6. Wis to damage is really rather good for a monk/ninja provided you can spare the feats/levels for it.

[Nanshork]

I get Wisdom to attack rolls with one feat (intuitive attack from BOED), and don't think it's worth to pay two more feats to get wisdom to damage.

Remember that +1 to damage is basically the same as increasing the size of one of your damage die by 1 and +3 damage is similar to adding a d6. Wis to damage is really rather good for a monk/ninja provided you can spare the feats/levels for it.

Also remember that the Wis to Attack from Shiba Protector would stack with the Intuitive Attack feat so you would get Wis to attack twice.

[SorO_Lost]

The class is nice, but needs 3 feats (two of which are utterly crappy) to qualify: Alertness, Expertise, Iron Will. 

I get Wisdom to attack rolls with one feat (intuitive attack from BOED), and don't think it's worth to pay two more feats to get wisdom to damage.

A. Passive Way Monk lets you pick up [Combat] Expertise without needing any points in Int (also gives improved-tripand paves way for knock-down). 3,000gp buys Iron Will via Otyugh Hole (complete scoundrel). So the cost isn't as large as you think.

B. Intuitive Attack Replaces StrMod with your WisMod. Shiba Protector's No Thought Adds your WisMod.

[Torvon]

A. Passive Way Monk lets you pick up [Combat] Expertise without needing any points in Int (also gives improved-tripand paves way for knock-down). 3,000gp buys Iron Will via Otyugh Hole (complete scoundrel). So the cost isn't as large as you think.

B. Intuitive Attack Replaces StrMod with your WisMod. Shiba Protector's No Thought Adds your WisMod.

Thank you for the feedback! These are some nice ideas, but not for this specific character in this specific campaign.

1) I need to take stunning fist and ascetic stalker as monk bonus feats at level 1 and 2 for that ninja/monk build to work. I can neither pick up combat expertise nor improved trip.
2) Knock-Down is 3.0 and not allowed.
3) Using an item to get a featlike ability to qualify for a PrC is not allowed. In addition, we have 7000GP at level 7 (I said it's a low magic campaign), so 3000 is a hell of a lot gold

[Jackinthegreen]

Otyugh Hole can directly grant the Iron Will feat (among other feats, your choice).  What happens is your character get imprisoned and has 3k of their wealth taken away.  It is not an item, or anything like an item.

[SorO_Lost]

How does low gold equal low magic? Low gold is low gold, you can't afford castles, houses, hirings, or horse drawn wagons with low gold. Eerr I mean... Wait, I didn't see a no un-updated 3.0 mention, probably because of all the 3.0 suggestions already posted on here.

*lightbulb*
You know, I'm not Zugs right? I'm going to make sure your no means no but not whine and throw a fit over it

Random stab in the dark, what about Telflammar Shadowlord? Sure eats a lot of Feats but your using PF's progression so meh.
Yes/No? Does matter, it's a setup. The Shadow Marauder is a much "cheaper" alternative at 2 Feats.
You still get DDoor, Shadow Walk, and Shadow Pounce. Just instead of Blur you get a Bonus Feat & +2d6 Sudden Strike which is a little more in theme. Unfortunately it is Mount based which might be a huge turn off for you, but try to thinking of a Shadow Creature Dire Bat or something when thinking if a Mount would break things for you.

[Torvon]

We're playing a thieves campaign. Mostly humans. In Airspur, a city in which magic is frowned upon. In fact, in the next city, Lutcheq, they burn elves simply for the fact that they think they could cast magic. Can't play any fancy flying devilish creatures of nightmarish shadow doom +3! ... in fact, no mount at all, seeing that we like, sneak into buildings, hide in tiny cellars, and the such.

You're also right about the 3.0, we discussed OA content here which is 3.0, but my DM dislikes knock-down, for instance. Pretty complicated what is allowed and what not.

Low money does not equal low magic, you are right here as well. However, low money means 3000 GP become worth much more than before. And there really seem more pressing items than one item that takes away 40% of my gold pool at level 7 (we start with 7k) to give me a useless feat to qualify for a very nice PRC (e.g., periapt of wisdom +2).

Shadowlord is a cool PRC, but needs Blind-Fight , Dodge , Mobility , Spring Attack. None of these 4 feats do I have in my build, so that will probably not work. Again, we're playing level 7, not level 20.

The suggestions are very helpful in general though. Keep them coming

[Raineh Daze]

Periapt of Wisdom +2 = +1 to attack, AC, and whatever else is running off Wisdom. +1 to will saves, too.

Using 3k to get Iron Will to qualify for said class = extra Wis mod to attack and damage at all times. Also +2 to will saves. Also cheaper.

[linklord231]

Why do you need to take Stunning Fist as your first level Monk feat? It's not a prereq for anything I can see, and you won't have very many uses/day. Also, unless you're REALLY attached to that monk speed boost, I'd suggest you swapping your third monk level for one more of Ninja.

As a side note, make sure your DM understands that the game assumes a certain amount of access to gear and magic items, and restricting that means you'll be far less effective than your level would indicate. Low wealth, low magic games are EXTREMELY difficult do balance, especially after level 6 or so.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Monk 1 / Druid X ... and add Disguise skill via:
{ ... insert isn't Druid the best "prc" for a Monk anyways smiley face ... }

City Slicker feat – Races of destiny, (adds others also)
or
Silverbrow Human (race) - Dragon Magic

Tell people:  "I'm a Ninja.  Look I've got the pants."

[Torvon]

Periapt of Wisdom +2 = +1 to attack, AC, and whatever else is running off Wisdom. +1 to will saves, too.

Using 3k to get Iron Will to qualify for said class = extra Wis mod to attack and damage at all times. Also +2 to will saves. Also cheaper.

The 3k do not let me qualify for the PrC - I need to take two more feats to qualify.


@Linklord: I agree that stunning fist isn't required for the build to work, but it IS a very nice feat, and the fortitude DC will be 18 with my current build at level 6, which really isn't too bad. I agree also that I should only take 3 levels in Monk. And about the low magic, yes, we're talking to him. My argument usually is that I'll simply play a cleric if he doesn't allow me a little bit of this and that, which will be much stronger than any monk/ninja could ever be

@ Awaken: I play a druid in another group. I don't want to play one in this ^^

[Concerned Ninja Citizen]

Looks like you'd only have 3 uses of Stunning Fist/day. The feat itself may be ok but you're only getting half as much out of it as a full monk would be (not that I'm recomending you go full monk.)

See if you can get your DM to let Ascetic Stalker also stack monk and ninja for Stunning Fist uses.

[Jackinthegreen]

What creatures do you expect to go up against?  Quite a few are immune to stunning either outright or by virtue of not needing to make fort saves due to type and such

[linklord231]

I was suggesting you only take two levels in Monk, swapping Still Mind and the 10' movement speed boost for an extra d6 of Sudden Strike damage.  Does your group use fractional BAB?  If so, your BAB will be the same (since you're taking 7 levels of classes that have 3/4th BAB either way, you have a +5).  If not, you lose one point of BAB because Monk 3 gets +1 BAB and Ninja 5 doesn't. 

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you about Stunning Fist being a "very good" feat.  I picked 3 random CR 7 monsters:  the Bulette, the Flesh Golem, and the Remorhaz.  Of those, 2 of them have a greater than 50/50 shot at beating a DC 18 save, and the other is immune.  And I guarantee you that monster's Fort saves increase faster than you can boost your Wisdom, especially in a low magic game. 

[Torvon]

You're right --  stunning fist will be only of very limited use. We're mostly fighting humans or half-orcs, not demons or undead or golems. I think it's amazing vs casters (coupled with my invisibility), but will only be 3x per day at level 7.

I agree with 2 levels monk, and wanted to write 2 levels above, but wrote 3 instead. However, we do not play with fractional BAB, unfortunately ... so 3 levels of monk would give me +1BAB, +10 movement, and +2 against saves from all evil, and all chaotic creatures (ACF for still mind) - not too shabby really. I'll think about it.

Looking at the Ninja Spy, the PrC I find fits the character best, I'm still wondering how to best qualify. 17 skill ranks in social skills are tough to qualify for in a character with Charisma 6 (I really need all other stats) and not a lot of skill points. Additionally, it requires evasion class features, which I'd LOVE to trade away for invisible fist ACF (examples of evil), clearly one of the best in the whole game (invisible as immediate action every third round, without any further limits? WOW. Even BETTER with ninja sudden strike!).