How do you feel about the 'Big Six' Items?

[Endarire]

This WotC article defines the Big Six as thus:

• Magic weapon
• Magic armor & shield
• Ring of protection (or a +deflection AC item)
• Cloak of resistance (or a +resistance saves item)
• Amulet of natural armor (or a +natural AC item)
• Ability score boosters

For me, paying gold for these items is basically saying, "I want this effect so much that I'll spend permanent resources to keep these effects on all day."  These effects can be gotten temporarily, to some degree via greater magic weapon, magic vestment, shield of faith, superior resistance, barkskin, and the animal buffs.  Thus, it's a matter of spell slots for temporary buffs (even if they're Persisted, they can still probably be dispelled) or money (or otherwise acquiring these items) for permanent use.

In short, to me, the Big Six are OK because they're circumventable via spells.  (Just make weapon enhancements cost half so they're the same as armor enhancements- +1 costs 1K, +2 costs 4K, +3 costs 9K...- and we're set.)  If your group doesn't share these buffs (or something comparable or better, like polymorph), you're in more trouble.

And if you aren't saving your money for these Big Six, then what are you spending your money on?

[linklord231]

I'd just as soon give most of these away for free - as in, every 20th level character has a +5 resistance bonus to saves, +5 defection and +5 natural to AC, +6 enhancement to one ability score and +4 to another, and every weapon they pick up is +5 in addition to whatever else it is.  The trick would be to scale it out so that these things come at a level appropriate time.

That way, you can spend gold on things like land and titles or random wondrous items without feeling like your character is bad.  This would also have the benefit of separating gold from character power to some extent, letting a DM run a "low wealth" campaign without screwing up the balance too much. 

That said, in games that don't do that, I usually only buy the armor (for enhancements), resistance to saves, and stat boosters.  I primarily play casters who don't usually need weapons, and the group I play with tends to face a disproportionately large number of "one CR+4 creature" encounters so AC is kind of pointless.  Instead, I spend my money on consumables, metamagic rods, and stuff from this list.

[Miranius]

I have found campaigns with one or more limitations on magic items to be more challenging and interesting. Either on how to get them, or, how to sell the majority of items you don`t need if there is noone with enoguh coin/barter to buy.
Taking high wealth-amounts as a given for some campaigns, i still find out-of-the-ordinary items to be  more fun since they make the players THINK on how to use them, mostly to quite different effects.

So for me, money was mostly spent on custom items or on somehow mitigating the downsides of treasure that was otherwise very fun/usable/both.

An example?  A quasi-domainstaff for a healer to expand her spell-list, a horn that increases HD of bound creatures (my party proactively improsonment-ed my character before he could use it and got rid of it  )

[veekie]

It's basically a matter of a wealth tax, heaviest upon martial characters(who both need all of the Six and can't provide any on their own) and lightest upon spellcasters(who don't even need half of them, and can provide the others at the cost of a spell slot, and a fairly low level one at that).

It should be done away with entirely or built into the level structure, as it's game role is entirely that of a failure point for inexperienced players(who'd pick the cool looking stuff as often as not), and a wealth limiting tax on those who need it the most. It makes the game less interesting overall, and more busywork with numbers. It limits the possible games, as it's the strongest anchor between wealth and character power, and is what kills any ideas relating to wealth modification. It's the same thing which busts captive plots along with the rich rewards of the dragon's hoard.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

The italicized ones are wagging "You're a chump!" to those that have to buy them

[Unbeliever]

This has come up before, and my only caution to getting rid of the Six, which mostly means folding them into level enhancement or something, is that I'd still want to make it possible for someone to invest heavily in some of these numbers, if they so chose to.

I liken it to playing a class that gives Divine Grace.  That's a really impressive resistance/tanking ability.  If someone wants to key up their AC, saves, accuracy, or some other aspect at the expense of something else (i.e., opportunity/resource cost) then I'd like to leave that as an option.  These Six categories of items aren't the only ways to do so, but they are a prominent one.

[Nytemare3701]

These Six categories of items aren't the only ways to do so, but they are a prominent one.

The problem is that the stats given by most of these are assumed of the average character, meaning characters fall behind for not buying them or obtaining those stats some other way. Specializing in one or more stats isn't a problem, it's the assumed baseline requiring a large chunk of your wealth for no reason other than monster stats scaling automatically.

On that note, this is exactly why I love my artificer. It uses the money saved from avoiding such taxes to make interesting things, and if the campaign scales up, I just upgrade the gear and be done with it.

[veekie]

This has come up before, and my only caution to getting rid of the Six, which mostly means folding them into level enhancement or something, is that I'd still want to make it possible for someone to invest heavily in some of these numbers, if they so chose to.

I liken it to playing a class that gives Divine Grace.  That's a really impressive resistance/tanking ability.  If someone wants to key up their AC, saves, accuracy, or some other aspect at the expense of something else (i.e., opportunity/resource cost) then I'd like to leave that as an option.  These Six categories of items aren't the only ways to do so, but they are a prominent one.

The main factor is making it an informed choice. As it is you aren't keying up one aspect at the expense of something else, you most likely never needed the sacrificed aspect in the first place. Control of RNG values is important, the way it works, you're looking at a widening natural gulf in modifiers(You're looking at a gap of up to 5(ignoring full casters who wouldn't even be using their attack bonus anyway) points of attack bonus  from BAB difference, 5 points from weapon enhancement another 3 points from base stat difference and 3 more from stat enhancement), simply because lack of investment compounds to make it foolish to further invest in a weak spot.

Gaps in modifiers must be tightly controlled. On a d20, a gap of 5 points is enough to differentiate the good and the great, 10 points should be the most you can allow on a contest of similar power levels, more than that and luck isn't even a factor anymore. Now in theory the way the costs work is that you can raise one modifier by +1 at the cost of lowering several by -1. With the wealth system, what actually happens though, is you raise a modifier by sacrificing interesting items or a bonus you weren't using.

[Endarire]

If the Big Six were automatically folded into PC progression somehow at level-appropriate times, should they get the same amount of wealth?  What would y'all spend your money on if not for Big Six items?

[snakeman830]

I would say cutting expected wealth by about 10-15% would probably be all right if those things were built in to a PC progression.  This ends up being a nerf to those that need the items the least (who are also the most powerful classes) and the poor Fighters and such are STILL making out better.

Other than the Big 6 items, very few magic items actually make you more powerful.  Most of them give greater flexibility and more situational benefits.

Now I want to work out a progression for this.

[Nunkuruji]

In so far as running modules as written and not choke holding WBL as the DM,

Most of things are given up as soon as PCs fight humanoid NPCs, where typically their NPC 1/4 WBL is spent only on Big 6.

PCs can tax themselves by getting somewhat ahead of the numeric curve by dumping all their cash in to Big 6 if they so choose, or they can spend it on other interesting things.

Personally I'm fine with it.

[Nytemare3701]

If the Big Six were automatically folded into PC progression somehow at level-appropriate times, should they get the same amount of wealth?  What would y'all spend your money on if not for Big Six items?

The same amount of wealth should be available, but the items available should be restricted so that players don't just buy similar bonuses and fall way off the curve in the other direction.

[phaedrusxy]

As Veekie said, they're basically a wealth tax on the classes who need them and cannot provide them via other means. So I do not like them, and in fact have rolled them into bonuses everyone gets in at least one game in the past.

As a PC, I buy only the ones that I can't get via other means (and I usually can get at least half of them outside of items, as I build my characters to be able to, or get them from a party-mate).

[RobbyPants]

If the Big Six were automatically folded into PC progression somehow at level-appropriate times, should they get the same amount of wealth?  What would y'all spend your money on if not for Big Six items?

Personally, I like the idea of folding the plusses from the Big Six into a level-based character progression. The items that are left tend to be the ones that are more fun to use. I like setting it up so anyone can craft, restrict how often items can be crafted, and drop the concept of WBL entirely. The idea is to allow people to buy fun things with their money, and to only have money marginally affect magic items.

Here are some house rules that I'm using in my current game.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

4e makes that part of the X-mas tree worse (mandatory).
4e Boons gets rid of most of it.

Tempest + groups postings back at wotc
utilize some of those, but not all.

I've heard it said that AC is near useless at high levels.

Yeah balancing items vs. spells vs. feats vs. class abilities
... = good luck with all that.

Ability Boost of "the" one caster stat,
is kinda the only game in town.
Or at least the biggest game in town.

[Kethrian]

So long as spellcasters aren't trying to break WBL balance, then I usually find that whatever they've saved in not buying these basics, they typically spend on consumables (scrolls, wands, staves, etc).  And because such items still count against WBL after usage, while the mundanes instead have permanent bonuses, it does balance out somewhat more than one might expect.  It's only when consumed magic items aren't tallied into WBL that casters really pull ahead.

[linklord231]

So long as spellcasters aren't trying to break WBL balance, then I usually find that whatever they've saved in not buying these basics, they typically spend on consumables (scrolls, wands, staves, etc).  And because such items still count against WBL after usage, while the mundanes instead have permanent bonuses, it does balance out somewhat more than one might expect.  It's only when consumed magic items aren't tallied into WBL that casters really pull ahead.

Consumables don't count against WBL, unless you're starting a new character above 1st level.  See the sidebar on DMG pg 54. 

[Kethrian]

And see, that's where WotC screws it up again.  They break their own rules.  They establish that wealth (rightfully so) is one of the measurements of a character's power.  But then they go and say that if you use up stuff, it no longer counts against what you have earned?  That's about as logical as two guys with $50, one spends it on a date, buying dinner and a movie, while the other buys his girl a necklace, so the first guy gets his $50 back after the date, since the food and movie were not permanent things.

So, if you follow what WotC says, WBL is inherently broken.  But if you (correctly) count consumables against that total, suddenly it begins to balance out properly ...

[littha]

And see, that's where WotC screws it up again.  They break their own rules.  They establish that wealth (rightfully so) is one of the measurements of a character's power.  But then they go and say that if you use up stuff, it no longer counts against what you have earned?  That's about as logical as two guys with $50, one spends it on a date, buying dinner and a movie, while the other buys his girl a necklace, so the first guy gets his $50 back after the date, since the food and movie were not permanent things.

So, if you follow what WotC says, WBL is inherently broken.  But if you (correctly) count consumables against that total, suddenly it begins to balance out properly ...

Think of it as a measure of potential rather than wealth and it works a lot better. It's not really 'Wealth' so much as expected power from items at a certain level and it doesnt really relate well to real world economics.

Also because the guy with the necklace gave it away it also wouldnt count against his WBL.


Anyway. Assuming a permanant item gives a +10 bonus and a consumable gives a +20 bonus for 10 rounds, should the guy with the consumable still be penalised for using that item for the rest of time? That means he is permanantly behind his friend for basically no gain in the long run.

This is not to say that the guy with the temporary item should get his wealth back immediately. I generally hand out loot at the end of a quest, at which point everyone gets bumped back to the same wealth. That gives sufficient time for the use of consumables to have an impact but not enough to cause lingering damage to the group's expected power level.


I have a lot of UMD rogues in my games...

[Kethrian]

Anyway. Assuming a permanant item gives a +10 bonus and a consumable gives a +20 bonus for 10 rounds, should the guy with the consumable still be penalised for using that item for the rest of time? That means he is permanantly behind his friend for basically no gain in the long run.

Considering that the consumable +20 is probably a staff or wand, he'll have 50 uses of it.  50 uses of +20 for 10 rounds vs a +10 all the time is definitely a good balance, since you generally don't need the bonus active every time, only when the challenge is sufficient.  If you don't like being "behind" in the long run, then simply buy the permanent bonus item.  If you'd rather have the ability to "burst" bigger bonuses, then get the consumable, and save it for when you need it, and potentially save other resources at those times.