Min/Max Boards

Well, as usual, I'm too worried about making an unbalanced class.  I guess my fears are for naught, however, so I'll get right on fixing this.

-The early levels seem really underwhelming. First level in particular you do what, bite+claw+claw+move or move+bite and absolutely nothing else? At least track as a bonus feat or something.
It already had Track, but I added Insane Resilience to give it some unusual staying power.  The first level doesn't need to be terribly flashy.  I also moved a lot of abilities down, and added Out Of My Way, because knocking over enemies seems very 'snatchlike.

-Just +6 Str and Con over 17 levels? When the original has over 30 str and 27 Con?
Added more bonuses, now it has +9 Str/Con at 17th level.

-Porcupine from hell needs some scaling and be less situational.
The thing about this is that the original ability is somewhat situational by definition:  If you hit it, you get hurt.  I added Fluffy Death at higher level to help bring the pain, made sure it was clear the damage scaled, and added its tail slap as a vector for this ability.

-Just geting a new natural weapon isn't worth a level around 5.
You're right, but not every level has to be chock full of goodies.  I added Unnatural Durability to help make up for it.

-Distance won't save you could've come a couple levels earlier. You're only geting some anti-air now?
Right you are, moved to 3rd.
-Similarly blindsense could've come a little earlier as well.
Again, right you are, changed.

-Confouding has some redudancy since Its eyes are mad already had a clause for bypassing immunity.
This was a remnant from editing, its now been clarified and changed.

-If pouncing charge quadruples your charge speed, somewhere earlier you could've included the ability to charge at triple speed.
Indeed.  It also let me work in a pop culture reference.

-It Will Not Die is not really that good, because by this levels chances are that you're droping straight from positive to a lot of negatives. And if you can still move, then you probably will get a single extra round before being finished off.
Eh, you're probably right.  Passive abilities aren't too fun anyway, and the 'snatch is already tough.  Removed.

-The confouding upgrade for a change seems a little over the top. You have a LOT of natural attacks and when they're all forcing saves things are gonna get ugly. Sugest that being hit multiple times just increases the DC rather than forcing multiple rolls.
Changed, although its still pretty powerful.  At least you're not confusing every foe in sight now.

-Rend at 16th level?


-Pretty nice capstone, but could use some cleaning. Activation action for the AMF and the usual "can drop/rise SR as a free action even if it isn't its turn".
Clarified

So overall pretty nice work, but too much in the lower power scale if you ask me. A lot of abilities could be moved earlier, then some more stuff to fill in the gaps left over.
Thanks for the input!

Alright, I've put in some major changes, see what you think now.  Also, I'm adding a changelog to keep track of anything else I end up doing.

So, I guess most people don't think the Bandersnatch is as cool as I do(no surprise there).  I'd really like this to get approved, though, so any thoughts or comments?  Surely there are some people who want to play giant flaming hedgehogs.

Bandersnatch





HD:d10

Level	Bab	Fort	Ref	Will	Feature
1	+1	+2	+0	+2	Bandersnatch Body, Mad All Over, Unnatural Durability
2	+2	+ 3	+0	+3	Hunter Relentless, Out Of My Way, +1 Str
3	+3	+ 3	+1	+3	Distance Wont Save You, Bounding Charge, +1 Con
4	+4	+ 4	+1	+4	Porcupine From Hell, Speed of Hate, +1 Str
5	+5	+ 4	+1	+4	Don't Go Behind It, Unnatural Durability, +1 Con
6	+6	+ 5	+2	+5	Growth, Two Claw Kill, +1 Str
7	+7	+ 5	+2	+5	Hunter Immaculate, Its Eyes Are Mad, +1 Con
8	+8	+ 6	+2	+6	Unnatural Durability, Brutal Tail, +1 Str
9	+9	+ 6	+3	+6	Crazed Resilience, Growth, +1 Con
10	+10	+7	+3	+7	They Come In Different Sorts, +1 Str
11	+11	+7	+3	+7	Pouncing Charge, Unnatural Durability, +1 Con
12	+12	+8	+4	+8	Six Claws Are Better Than Two, Insane Resilience, +1 Str
13	+13	+8	+4	+8	Hunter Extraordinaire, Fluffy Death, +1 Con
14	+14	+9	+4	+9	They Each Know How To Kill, +1 Str
15	+15	+9	+5	+9	Barbed Quills, Growth, +1 Con
16	+16	+10	+5	+10	Speed of Death, Banderblitz, +1 Str
17	+17	+10	+5	+10	Hunter Supreme, We're All Mad Here, +1 Con

Skills:4+int modifier per level, quadruple at 1st level,  class skills are Intimidate(Cha), Jump(Str), Knowledge(The Planes)(Int), Listen (Wis), Sense Motive(Wis), Spot (Wis) Swim(Str), and Survival (Wis)

Proficiencies:  Natural Weapons.


Features:

Bandersnatch Body:  At first level, a Bandersnatch loses all racial traits, bonuses and abilities and gains Magical Beast traits(effectively Darkvision 60 ft.).  Bandersnatches are medium Magical Beasts with a base speed of 40 feet, a climb speed of 10 feet, a bite attack that deals 1d6+str modifier and two claw attacks that deal 1d4+1/2 str modifier.  In addition, it gains a natural armor bonus equal to its Con bonus, and it gets an additional +1 natural armor each time it goes up in size.

Mad All Over:  Equally at home wherever it goes, you never know where a Bandersnatch might pop up.  It is always considered to be on its home plane, regardless of what plane it finds itself upon. It never gains the extraplanar subtype.  In addition, it gains Track as a bonus feat.  Due to its connection to the fae, it also gains a +4 bonus on will saves against enchantment effects.

Unnatural Durability:  At 1st level, the Bandersnatch can shrug off conditions with a bizarre hardiness.  It becomes immune to Sleep effects, and if reduced to negative HP, it can still perform a single move equivalent or standard action each round.  It still loses HP if it doesn't stabilize, and it dies at -10 HP.  At each additional level that the Bandersnatch gains Unnatural Durability, it can choose one of the following conditions to be immune to:  Paralysis, Poison, or Fear; and the number of negative HP at which it dies increases by 5(-15, -20, etc.).

Hunter Relentless:  You can run, you can hide, but it will find you.  At 2nd level, a Bandersnatch can move at up to double its speed and still track without penalty. It gains a competence bonus on Survival checks made to track creatures it has wounded equal to 2xHD, and gains the scent special ability.

Out Of My Way:  A Bandersnatch goes where it wants, knocking over its enemies like ninepins if they get in its way.  It can attempt to overrun any number of enemies it moves over as a free action, and it does not provoke attacks of opportunity on overrun attempts.

Ability Increase:  A Bandersnatch gains +1 Str at levels 2, 4, 6, 8, 9, 10, 12, 14, and 16, and +1 Con at levels 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 12, 13, 15, and 17, for a total of +9 Str and +9 Con at 17th level.

Distance Wont Save You:  At 3rd level, the Bandersnatch is able to loose a volley of quills by snapping its tail.  It gains two quills as a ranged natural attack, and gains additional quills at 11th and 16th level.  It can throw all of them as a full round action, or a single quill as a standard action.  The quills have a maximum range of 300 ft. with no range increment, and deal 1d6+str modifier damage.

Bounding Charge:  The Bandersnatch leaps around the battlefield, taking foes by surprise with its swiftness.  It can move through difficult terrain at full speed when charging, and it does not need to charge in a straight line.

Porcupine From Hell:  At 4th level, razor sharp quills grow from the Bandersnatch's back.  Any creature that strikes a Bandersnatch with a non-reach melee weapon, unarmed strike, or natural weapon takes 1d6 points of piercing damage as the spines pierce them.  This increases by one die type every time the Bandersnatch grows in size.  Furthermore, the sensitive nature of the quills grants it blindsense with a range of 30 ft.

Speed of Hate:  The Bandersnatch is harder, faster, better, stronger.  It can move at three times its speed when charging, instead of double.

Don't Go Behind It:  At 5th level, the Bandersnatch gains an unusually strong secondary tail slap attack that deals 1d6+str modifier damage.

Growth:  The Bandersnatch grows one size catagory.

Two Claw Kill:  As it begins to grow larger, a Bandersnatch will often just pull its foes apart.  At 6th level, if it hits with both claw attacks, it rends the victim, dealing extra damage equal to its base claw damage plus 1,5 its Str modifier.

Hunter Immaculate:  At 7th level, the Bandersnatch hones its hunting abilities to a razorlike keenness.  The range of its blindsense increases to 60 ft., its darkvision range increases to 120 ft., its base land speed increases to 60 ft and its climb speed increases to 20 ft.  Furthermore, its unique hunting prowess makes it easier to slip past other predators.  It is undetectable by the scent special ability, and the range of blindsight, tremorsense, blindsense, etc. are halved in relation to the Bandersnatch.

Its Eyes Are Mad: In the eyes of a Bandersnatch, one can glimpse strange images of the insane savannahs they call home, something not easily forgotten.  A number of times per day equal to its HD+Con mod and no more than 1/round, the Bandersnatch can glance at a creature within 30 feet as a swift action. They must both be able to see each other. The target must then must make a Will save with DC 10+1/2 HD+Con modifier or be confused for 1 round per HD. This is a mind-affecting effect.

If it uses this as a move action, he can extend the range to 60 feet.
If it uses this as a standard action, he can extend the range to 120 feet.
If it uses this as a Fullround action, he can extend the range to 240 feet.

If it has 12 or more HD, the gaze affects even those normal immune to mind-affecting effects, although they gain a +5 bonus on their saves.

Brutal Tail:  At 8th level, the Bandersnatch's tail becomes its main weapon of destruction.  It now adds 1,5 its strength modifier to damage with its tail, and its critical becomes 19-20/x3.  Any creature hit by its tail also take damage as if they had hit it in melee, as per the Porcupine From Hell ability.  In addition, its reach increases by 5 ft. when using its tail slap attack.

Crazed Resilience:   A debilitated Bandersnatch recovers with frightening speed. If a Bandersnatch of at least 9th level starts its turn affected by any or all of the following conditions, these conditions end at the end of its turn: confused, dazzled, fatigued, and sickened.  Furthermore, a Bandersnatch affected by ability damage, ability drain, or a mind-affecting effect that allows a save receives a single additional save against the effect of its choice at the original DC at the end of its turn in order to shake off the effect.

They Come in Different Sorts:  As the Bandersnatch evolves, it begins to show unique powers that vary between 'snatches.  At 10th level, it chooses one of the abilities below.

Frumious:  A Bandersnatch which is Frumious is rage incarnate, using its hatred to better destroy its enemies.  If it misses with its bite attack or falls below half its HP, it succumbs to such uncontrollable fury that it bursts into flames.  These flames last for 5 rounds, during which its natural attacks deal an additional 1d6 fire damage.  After fruming, a Bandersnatch cannot do so again for 5 rounds.  It also gains fire resistance equal to 2x its HD at all times.

Confounding:  A Bandersnatch which is Confounding is madness incarnate, twisting the minds of its foes with brutal intent.  Anyone hit by its bite attack must make a will save(DC 10+1/2 HD+Con modifier) or be Confused for 1 round/HD.  This is a mind affecting effect.  In addition, the save DC for Its Eyes Are Mad increases by 2.

Magicbane:  A Bandersnatch which is Magicbane is a spellcaster's worst nightmare.  Anyone it hits with its bite must make a will save(DC10+1/2 HD+Con modifier) or be unable to cast any spells, use any supernatural or spell like abilities, or activate any magic items, for 1 round.

Primordial:  A Bandersnatch which is Primordial is deeply connected to the fae world it originated from, causing some of that madness to leak through.  They are considered to be Outsiders or Magical Beasts at any given time, whichever would be more beneficial to the 'snatch.  In addition, they gain DR/Cold Iron equal to half their HD, and their natural attacks are considered both silver and cold iron for the purposes of piercing damage reduction.

Pouncing Charge:  A Bandersnatch is like a whirlwind of claws in combat, shredding all before it.  It can make a full attack at the end of a charge, and it can now move at 4 times its speed when charging, instead of double.

Six Claws Are Better Than Two:  At 12th level, if a Bandersnatch gets a grip on you, you're just plain dead.  It gain 4 rake attacks that each deal 1d8+1/2 Str modifier damage.

Insane Resilience:  There is nothing tougher than a Bandersnatch.  It adds the following conditions to its Crazed resilience ability: Dazed, Exhausted, Nauseated, and Stunned.  In addition, it gains fast healing equal to half its HD.

Hunter Extraordinaire:  Nothing escapes a 'snatch.  Nothing.  It can track incorporeal creatures without penalty by sensing the subtle changes they leave in the planer fabric, and it benefits from a permanent True Seeing effect.  Even if this is somehow dispelled, it can raise it as a free action on its next turn.  As an apex predator, lesser hunters are beneath its notice, and it can never be hunted by normal means.  Nothing can track a Bandersnatch except another Bandersnatch, and it the range of blindsense, blindsight and tremorsense are reduced to 5 ft. in relation to the Bandersnatch.

Fluffy Death:  At 13th level, by raising its spiny hackles, the Bandersnatch can cut and shred anyone who comes near it.  As a free action, it can activate this ability, which deals Porcupine From Hell damage to anyone within 5 ft. of it every round.  The quills are also distracting and get in the way, providing a -4 penalty to the attacks and AC of anyone in range.  It can lower this as a free action as well, to allow allies to come near, but it cannot raise and lower its spines in the same turn.
At 16th level, it affects everyone within 10 ft.

They Each Know How To Kill:  At 14th level, the Bandersnatch continues its strange evolution.  Its ability from They Come In Different Sorts improves as detailed below.

Frumious:  When in a fury, the Bandersnatch acts as if under the effects of a Haste spell.  In addition, the damage from its fire improves to 1d8.

Confounding:  The repeated attack of the Bandersnatch wear down the minds of its opponents.  Every time it hits an enemy with a melee attack, that foe gets a -2 penalty to their saving throws against any confusion effect until the end of the turn; this stacks.  In addition, it can now use Its Eyes Are Mad any number of times per day, not limited by its HD.

Magicbane:  All of the Bandersnatch's natural attacks deal an additional 1d6 against spellcasters or creatures with supernatural or spell like abilities.  In addition, the save for its Magicbane bite increases by 2.

Primordial:  The damage dice for the Bandersnatch's natural weapons increases by one size.  In addition, its DR becomes DR/Lawful and Cold Iron.

Barbed Quills:  Those struck by a Bandersnatch's quills are filled with a burning agony, as the quills break off in their wounds.  Anyone taking damage from the 'snatch's tail slap or thrown quills, or from Porcupine From Hell/Fluffy Death, must make a Reflex save(DC10+1/2 HD+Con modifier) or a quill lodges in their flesh, causing the creature to become sickened and take damage equal to the base quill damage each round until the quill is removed.  Removing one quill requires a DC 20 Heal check made as a full-round action. For every 5 by which the check exceeds the DC, one additional quill can be removed. On a failed check, a quill is still removed, but the process deals double the quill's base damage to the victim.

Speed of Death:  The Bandersnatch is faster than lightning, and twice as deadly.  As a swift action, it can make a single attack with a bite, claw, or tail slap; or take a single move action.  It cannot do this on a turn when it charges.

Banderblitz:  Zooming around at breakneck speeds, the Bandersnatch leaves only the corpses of its foes to mark its passing.  When charging, it can split up its movement and attacks in any order.  For instance, it could move 10 ft., attack with its bite, move 60 ft, make a claw attack, move 120 ft., make a claw and tail slap attack, and then move the remaining 50 ft.; or any similar combination.  It gains full bonuses from charging on all attacks(+2 attack, etc.), and does not provoke attacks of opportunity when passing through threatened squares during its charge.

Hunter Supreme:  Bandersnatches are the ultimate hunters, and their quarries have no hope of escaping.  They can track without penalty even when running, and they can still track those using magic to obscure their trail(via Pass Without Trace, etc.).  It is under a permanent Locate Creature/Object effect, allowing it to duplicate those spells at will.  Running water does not block this ability, nor does Nondetection, Misdirection, Polymorph, etc.  In addition, its blindsense improves to 120 ft.

We're All Mad Here:  The Bandersnatch has completed its evolution, becoming a shining beacon of insanity in an all to sane world.  It gains one of the following abilities, depending on which ability it chose from They All Know How To Kill.

Frumious Bandersnatch:  Like the heart of a star, the Frumious Bandersnatch burns white hot with fury.  The 'snatch now gains an additional swift action each round, which can be spent only on its Speed of Death ability or Its Eyes Are Mad.  Furthermore, its fire damage improves to 2d6, and half of it is considered to be born of pure rage, and is thus not subject to any sort of resistance or immunity.

Confounding Bandersnatch:  Insanity given form, the Confounding Bandersnatch warps the very world with its madness, and shatters the minds of those who oppose it.  At its option, any space the Bandersnatch moves over is thereafter considered to be difficult terrain.  In addition, any creature that fails its save against 2 or more of the snatch's confusing effects is rendered permanently Insane, as the spell.

Magicbane Bandersnatch:  Like a center of calm amidst the storm which is magic, the Magicbane Bandersnatch is an unstoppable foe for those who cast spells.  Once per day per 4 HD, it can create an Antimagic Field as the spell as a standard action, with a 20 ft. radius.  Furthermore, any creature hit by its ranged quills must also make a save or be unable to cast spells for one round, as per its magicbane bite.

Primordial Bandersnatch:  An ancient, unearthly beast, the Primordial Bandersnatch is a beacon of insanity, powerful and grand.  It grows another size category, becoming Colossal, and gains Spell Resistance equal to its HD+11.  This Spell Resistance can be raised or lowered at any time as a free action, even if it is not the 'snatch's turn.




Comments:

First off, I think this is pretty awesome.  I've always loved Grells, the concept of a giant floating brain with tentacles just clicks with me for some reason.

However, 11 attacks at third levels?  That makes this the most powerful monster at that level, period.  Even with fairly low ability scores(and you know the player will actually put 18 on strength or something), that's way more damage than is possible at that level with any other class.  I dread to think of what will happen when one of these takes the Lion Totem barbarian and the Shock Trooper and Leap attack feats.  It would be unstoppable.  Not to mention that with eleven attacks his turn is going to take at least twice as long as all the other players, and they will feel upstaged by him.  You're obviously more experienced at making monsters than I am, but I would strongly suggest reducing the number of attacks, making them secondary, giving it more at higher levels, or at least nerfing it in some way.  As it is, there's no way I'd allow it in the games I DM.
But, you know, your choice.  Maybe I'm just overreacting.

Sweet.  This really brings the Chaos factor to the front and makes it unique among other melee monsters.  It's also interesting to me that at Epic levels, the Red Slaad can basically shut down everything with no save.  Especially when foes have over 100 HD.

Oh, and one little error here I think.

For each 4 HD gained past 7th level(11th, 15th, 20th), the Blue Slaad gains an additional use of Summon Slaad per day.

Shouldn't it be 19th level, and Red Slaad?

Hmm, I see what you mean about the summoning.  The Green Slaad can summon a Red Slaad at level 6, but the Red is only CR 7.  I'll move it up to 8th level at 1/day, and give it extra uses for every 4 HD.

And I would love to see an update on the Red Slaad.  Insane giant frogs deserve more love.

Edit:  Alright, switched the summoning to 8th level and dropped the Str bonus to 7th.  How does it look now?

Blue Slaad


HD:d8

Level	BAB	Fort	Ref	Will	Feature
1	+1	+2	+0	+0	Body of Chaos, Frog Roullete
2	+2	+3	+0	+0	Blue Slaad, Str+1
3	+3	+3	+1	+1	Raking Claws, Disease, Con+1
4	+4	+4	+1	+1	Fast Healing, Don't Turn Your Back On Me, Str+1
5	+5	+4	+1	+1	Nothing Can Stop Me, Con+1
6	+6	+5	+2	+2	Growth, Str+1, Con+1
7	+7	+5	+2	+2	I'll Drag You To Limbo, Con+1
8	+8	+6	+2	+2	Summon Slaad, Rake The World Away, Str+1

Skills:  4+int modifier per level, quadruple at first level.  Class Skills: Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Swim, and Tumble.

Proficiencies:  All simple weapons, and its own natural weapons.

Class Features:
Body of Chaos:  The Blue Slaad loses all other racial bonus and gains outsider traits (basically dark vision 60 feet). It's a medium sized outsider with base speed 30 feet, two rake attacks dealing 1d6+1/2 Str each and and a bite attack dealing 2d6+Str.  It has not yet gained the coordination required to use both bone spurs on its hands at once, and they are therefore each treated as a single rake attack.

In addition, it gains a Nat Armor bonus equal to his Con modifier. It increases by an extra 1 when it grows to large size.

Frog Roullete:As an immediate action, the Slaad can re-roll any 1d20 roll it just made before knowing the results, but takes a -2 penalty on the roll and must accept the result even if worst. Every subsequent time you use this ability on the next 24 hours, the penalty on the second roll increases by an extra -1.

Ability increase:The blue slaad gains a permanent +1 to Str at levels 2, 4, 6, 8 and +1 to Con at levels 3, 5, 6, and 7.

Blue Slaad:  Gains the Chaotic subtype, and any weapons it wields, including natural weapons, count as chaotic aligned for bypassing DR. It also gains resistance to sonic damage equal to his own HD and resistance to fire, cold, acid and electrecity equal to half his own HD.  In addition, the Blue Slaad is immune to the harmful effects of Limbo, excepting random encounters.  Thus wild magic does not affect slaadi magic(unless the Slaad wants it to).

Raking Claws (Ex):Through enhanced coordination and practice, the Blue Slaad is now able to use its rake more effectively.  The damage from its two primary rakes improves to 1d8, and it gains two extra rakes as secondary natural weapons.

Disease: A number of times per day equal to its HD, the Blue Slaad can infect those it bites with a terrible transformation.  Affected creatures must succeed at a fortitude save, DC 10+1/2 HD+Con modifier, or be infected with a disease that transforms the victem over the next week into a Red Slaad.  It has no memory of its previous life, and all class levels are lost.  In effect, it loses all class levels and/or racial HD, and gains levels in the Red Slaad monster class equal to its previous class level or RHD, to a maximum of seven.  It is not under the Blue Slaad's control, and usually shuns its creator.  The infected can make another saving through each day to avoid the transformation.
If the infected has levels in an arcane spellcasting class, it instead gains levels of the Green Slaad class, to a maximum of nine.

Fast healing:  At 4th level the Blue Slaad gains fast healing equal to half it's own HD.

Don't Turn Your Back On Me:  The Blue Slaad can now use Hold Person as an SLA 1/day for each 2 HD.  The save is 10+1/2 HD+Con modifier.

Nothing Can Stop Me:  The Blue Slaad can now use Passwall as an SLA 1/day for each 2 HD.

Growth: At 6th level the Blue Slaad increases one size category.

I'll Drag You To Limbo:  At 7th level, the Blue Slaad can use Telekinesis as an SLA 1/day for each 3 HD.  The save is 10+1/2 HD+Con modifier.  In addition, it uses its Con modifier instead of any mental ability modifier for any opposed check made with the Telekinesis, such as grappling, disarming, etc.

Summon Slaad:  At 8th level, the Blue Slaad is capable of summoning others of its kind to aid it in combat.  1/day, as a full round action, it can summon a Blue Slaad, as the Monster Manuel entry.  The slaad remains for 1 minute per HD, then disappears.  It cannot use its own summoning abilities while summoned.
For each 4 HD gained past 8th level(12th, 16th, 20th), the Blue Slaad gains an additional use of Summon Slaad per day.

Rake The World Away:  The Blue Slaad now has full coordination with its bone spurs, and has become a whirling combat machine, akin to a giant froglike blender in combat.  It can now use all 4 rakes at its full BAB as primary weapons.


Comments