Author Topic: I wanna make a melee in 3.5  (Read 12361 times)

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: I wanna make a melee in 3.5
« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2011, 06:31:54 PM »
There are some nice races/templates for fighters.  Half-Minotaur is likely the best regardless of if the size increases stats further.  Feral and Mineral Warrior are not bad either.
Lycanthropes can also be pretty decent, especially since with an initiator the racial hit dice count for half initiator levels. I'm playing a were-dire badger with a warblade dip in a game and he's pretty nasty. If you can advance the dire badger 1 racial hit die, it becomes a lot nastier (increases to large size).

If you do this make sure your armour will still fit when you change.
It does, actually.

From alternate form (which is what they have):
Quote
Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and vice versa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped.

Well... at least it will change sizes, which is better than most types of form-changing magic. Armor and weapons are two things that don't normally change sizes with you with most such abilities.
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Offline hazard

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Re: I wanna make a melee in 3.5
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2011, 06:35:09 PM »
Human Barbarian 1/Warblade 5/Fighter 6/Disciple of Dispater 8

This is probably a great build, but do not know where Disciple of Dispater is or what it does.  Without that I can't judge sorry.

Does it need the crits to work or is that just extra.  The stone skin effect while not what I had in mind but does fit, and with warblade the once per day thing won't really matter cause he has other defenses besides it. 

Now my turn. ( It will not be as in depth as yours)
And people tell me if something doesn't work.

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« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 12:50:19 PM by hazard »
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: I wanna make a melee in 3.5
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2011, 06:41:02 PM »
Disciple of Dispater is from the Book of VIle Darkness. It is one of a handful of ways to get higher than normal critical threat ranges.
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Offline hazard

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Re: I wanna make a melee in 3.5
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2011, 06:42:28 PM »
Actually, in the round you recover your maneuvers you must either  do nothing or make a melee attack - there is no restriction on what you do after the melee attack so go on and complete the full attack sequence.

And if you do go totemist you might find you get a better damage output with all four arms working one glaive - I forget where the rule about extra hands on a weapon is but IIRC it's something like +.5 str bonus/added hand and +1xPA penalty/added hand.
AH yall snuck up on me.

IIRC <- Wha?
But does it really do more damage than power attacking with two THWs? If so can I be directed to where this is?

@ all the Lycanthrope suggestions
while I like shapechanging having it just doesn't look like it would contribute as much as class leves

thanks for the local Phaedrusxy.
See yall tomorrow school stuff must be done.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 06:45:25 PM by hazard »
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Offline Libertad

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Re: I wanna make a melee in 3.5
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2011, 06:50:56 PM »
Disciple of Dispater is from the Book of VIle Darkness. It is one of a handful of ways to get higher than normal critical threat ranges.

Note: The Disciple prestige classes require an evil alignment.  Many DMs prevent evil alignments from getting played in their campaigns.  If you want to take it, check with your DM beforehand.

Offline Noliar

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Re: I wanna make a melee in 3.5
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2011, 06:58:21 PM »
IIRC = if I recall

It's in the rules section of the monstrous manuals eg. MM2 p14 and it doesn't mention power attack and it says a specially crafted weapon is needed so probably not worth your while. Although a long hafted weapon like a glaive should be the easiest to adapt for extra hands and keeping claws available for infighting if necessary is more feasible with only one polearm.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: I wanna make a melee in 3.5
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2011, 07:03:16 PM »
@ all the Lycanthrope suggestions
while I like shapechanging having it just doesn't look like it would contribute as much as class leves
If we were talking about a caster, of course that would be true. For non-casters, it isn't so cut and dried. The tome of battle stuff doesn't really have a strong correlation between maneuver level and power. Some of the best things in the book are actually low level (Iron Heart Surge, White Raven Tactics, etc). And lycanthropy can add quite a bit. Here is my ECL 10 were-dire badger, for example.

The lycanthrope not only gives him insanely good physical stats, it also gives him a burrow speed, scent, a bit of damage reduction, decent natural armor, and via Steadfast Determination he gets even more use out of that beefy Con score by applying it to will saves.

He also qualifies for Warshaper, which gives even more Str and Con, immunity to crits, fast healing, reach, and better natural weapons (eventually. He still has a few levels to go).
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Offline hazard

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Re: I wanna make a melee in 3.5
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2011, 08:09:52 PM »
Thanks noliar.

Phaedrusxy that's mostly all true except for scent barely working as a early warning system and damage reduction isn't that important at mid- high levels.  Mostly the bad stuff is the +2 la.  While xp maybe a river for LA buyback you are still lower level for some of your career which really hurts being already behind on effectiveness.

I guess in a suicdal attempt to cure yourself you can level drain yourself of most of the ineffectual. Hitdice but most DMs won't allow that.

But for all that work it is still more effective just to be a feral mineral warrior.

Wow that was just to much work on a phone. And not really what I meant.  This is: to much hit dice not enough benefits and most importantly not what I want for this PC.
Hope none of that sounded hostile.
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Offline Endarire

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Re: I wanna make a melee in 3.5
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2011, 03:48:12 AM »
Since you plan to go dragoon, how'zbout a Cleric1 level for the 2 domains, or Cloistered Cleric for 2 domains + Knowledge Devotion?  You never need to cast a spell.

How much damage are you looking to deal?  My Dragonborn Half-Minotaur Water Orc was one-shotting everything in the Red Hand of Doom (which runs mostly off the Monster Manual stats) from level 4 to about 9.

Also, Improved Initiative works wonders for going first.  And you want to go first and make enemies asplode!

Offline hazard

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Re: I wanna make a melee in 3.5
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2011, 08:20:24 AM »
For a cleric dip Id dump my wisdom to 10 so I couldn't Cast but I don't know how to fit it in with all the feat mashing I'm putting in this.

My dm probably won't let me have multiple templates but I do want to be able to one shot level appropriate creatures.

the thing is with the melee celerity I don't need to go first since they're just going to cower anyways.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 12:46:53 PM by hazard »
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Offline Dreamweaver

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Re: I wanna make a melee in 3.5
« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2011, 10:27:23 AM »
Yes, Disciple of Dispater is in BoVD.  Yes, depending upon the DM, he may not allow Evil alignments in his PCs, which would disallow this class.

However:  good roleplaying on your part AND, as per my spoiler suggestion, getting a Ring of Mind Shielding as early as possible (or shortly after becoming evil) will help even out the issue and hide you from any possible "paladin-y" types from being bugged out by you other than perhaps getting creeped out by you (ala Dexter, if you've ever seen that show, heh).

Yes, the crits are typically key to getting the nigh infinite attacks in one round, hence also my suggestion of Greater True Death and Greater Demolition weapon crystals for your Kukri weapons (which have the original 18-20 crit range and are considered light weapons so no additional penalties for the TWF).  This will allow you to crit pretty much everything.  Well, plants, maybe plant creatures might be an issue.  They are immune to crits, right?  Hrm, and elementals could be an issue as well, I guess.

Still, even against creatures you can't crit (which shouldn't come up every combat unless your DM hates you), you can still get a lot of attacks off per round.  While you can't ever confirm a crit against one, I think you could still "threaten" a crit if you got in your crit range for your weapon, it just would never actually do the "extra" damage.

That would mean 3 things:

1) Your Blood in the Water stance will never do anything against them.  If you never actually crit, you never actually get its bonus.   :(

2) Your Roundabout Kick feat would never grant you an extra attack.  If you never actually crit, you never get the bonus attack.  :(

3) You should still be able to get your extra attack from "threatening" a crit from your Lightning Mace feat.

While you'll never be able to go infinite, still, attacking something at least 9 times in a round (with possibly another 5 attacks with the 60% crit threaten rate) for 1d4+23 main hand (Greater Iron Hews and Whirling Frenzy active) and 1d4+18 off-hand (with only 2 of the 9 being off-hand and likely at least 1 of the 5 being off-hand), your minimum damage against one opponent that you charged in one round (possibly the very first round) would be around: 321 damage.

I'd think that would eliminate most opponents in one round, many that may even have 20 or more HD.


Still, to put in perspective, you'd have to do a level by level advancement to see at what point this build would start to be uber deadly.  I have one, but it is apparently too long to post (over 40k characters).

If you could give me a specific level you'd like to see, I can pull that section from my breakdown and post it here, along with, of course, suggested magic items, feats by that level, etc...
« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 10:36:47 AM by Dreamweaver »

Offline Dreamweaver

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Re: I wanna make a melee in 3.5
« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2011, 10:39:54 AM »
Shoot, let me give it a try, here it is from Level 3 to Level 19:

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Offline Dreamweaver

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Re: I wanna make a melee in 3.5
« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2011, 11:06:49 AM »
Ok, so looking at the level break down and the feat list (from my first spoiler post), you essentially have the possibility of getting lots of attacks at 8th level once both of your Kukri weapons are made into Apptitude weapons.

At 7th level, only one of them is an Apptitude weapon so you wouldn't be able to be, effectively, "wielding a light mace in each hand" for the Lightning Mace feat.

Of course, at 9th level, this definitely jumps up to a "pretty good" possibility as you gain the Improved Critical[Kukri] feat, and at 10th level, even better, as you've gained the 4th level of Disciple of Dispater giving you the first touch of the Iron Power class ability, increasing your attack and damage rolls and doubling your crit range as if your weapon is Keen (but specifically stating that it stacks with the Improved Crit feat).

So at 9th, your crit range is 15-20, which is a 30% chance to threaten a crit.  At 10th, your crit range is 12-20, which is a 45% chance to threaten a crit.

Not bad.  Of course, your damage out put is kind meh at this point, so if you go up against something that has damage reduction, you might have some issues unless someone can buff your Str a little bit (or magically enhance your weapon damage a bit).

Of course, your choices of magical items, or when you gain them, may differ from mine, which may get you better damage by this point.  I, personally, like to generally try to be self sufficient as much as possible (hence the bedroll and endless ration stuff).  But if that never is an issue or you don't care about that, more power to you.

I kinda like to view this guy as a mini-Dispater.  He is generally aloof, fully confident in his own abilities, and interested in getting others into contracts or deals that, essentially, make them serve him.  In combat, especially at later levels, I could see this guy simply standing in the background near the casters with his arms folded watching the party deal with an encounter.  At least, until he saw a possible worthy foe or it seemed like the tide of battle was turning against the party's favor.  At which point, he'd pull his Kukris, dive into battle, and in a bloody whirlwind of blades, slaughter foes left and right (or take down the main baddy in the encounter in one round).  Think about it, a round is 6 seconds.  This guy pulls off a hundred or more attacks in 6 seconds!!!  That would be like getting a thousand paper cuts that do quite a bit more than just barely slice your skin.

Or, better, in an encounter where there is the main "captain"/baddy with a bunch of minions, he pulls off the "counting coup".  With a smirk, he charges the main baddy with his Kukris, but instead of stabbing him, he simply slaps him with the flats of the blades a hundred or more times.  Talk about insult!  Naturally the baddy will want to clobber him (go go Improved Combat Expertise for very nice ac plus the Ironskin class ability).  After unsuccessfully doing practically anything to him, the next round this guy yawns, stabs the main baddy once, causing him to explode in gore, and then casually looks around at the baddy's minions.  I know there generally isn't really a direct rule on a possible morale check, but I think a DM could be reasonably convinced that if a character did this, all minions, who saw their "boss" get humiliated and then slaughtered with one real attack, would make Will saves or flee/surrender.

 :D
« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 11:09:55 AM by Dreamweaver »

Offline hazard

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Re: I wanna make a melee in 3.5
« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2011, 12:46:24 PM »
Just got news on what level the next dungeon is...
5th

How big is this counting coup ability per touch attack?  Because it sounds like storm guard warriors bonus to damage, with apptitude weapons I could do it sooner with out Dispater or being evil.

Two of my Dms love undead so a crit build will be horrible, and lots of DR so twf is also harder.

On the flee/surrender my dms usually do it only if they were planning to any way so a moot point.
A level 5 incarnum dragoon

Feral Azurin
Lion Frenzy barbarian 1/ HnR fighter 1/ totemist 2/ warblade 1

Feats
battle jump
intimidating rage
power attack
improved bullrush

six level is fighter again for
shock trooper and imperious command
« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 01:11:20 PM by hazard »
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Offline Dreamweaver

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Re: I wanna make a melee in 3.5
« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2011, 01:58:13 PM »
Well, the "counting coup" ability really stacks up damage depending upon how many successful touch attacks you do the round previous to the current round to ONE particular enemy.

For every successful melee touch attack, you gain a +5 unnamed damage bonus against that enemy during the next rounds attacks.  Obviously, the more attacks you can get in the previous round, the more damage you'll do the next round.  As I said, the build can get nigh infinite attacks in one round so lets say you do 5000 touch attacks that succeed at hitting the enemy, doing no damage, in the previous round.  This round, each attack you do against that enemy gains +25000 damage...THAT'S PER ATTACK!  Not that you'll need more than 1 attack at that point, but you get the idea.

To get it, you need the Storm Guard Warrior feat, which has certain special pre-reqs, which I'm sure you could obtain earlier in a build that doesn't focus on getting thousands of attacks in a round.

As I mentioned, a Greater Weapon Crystal of True Death allows you to crit/sneak attack undead, so that wouldn't be an issue.

The DR might be, initially, until you got to later in the build, say level 10+.

Starting at 5th level, against non-critable/DR type creatures, you'd probably have a problem with my build.  Kinda weak on the damage at that point.  Of course, until you get up in levels, thanks to Warblade, you could always use a THW until you can start dishing out enough damage/gain weapon crystals to bypass the DR/non-critable traits of your enemies.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 02:00:14 PM by Dreamweaver »