CO challenge Break this houserule #1: partial casting prcs are full casting

[phaedrusxy]

It's really interesting that so far I can't think of anything as good as the full casting classes (planar shepherd, incantatrix, dweomerkeeper, ...).

Which is why it's probably a perfectly good houserule, if you're looking to make the game more fun without altering the powerlevel downward from a default optimized game.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Crap Lifedrinker is still -2 and all the -1s are now +1s

[awaken_D_M_golem]

+1 on SirP's Mind Mage.


Hey do Bloodlines count for this,
if so ... DavidWL's = evul grin.

(?) Master Of Masks was 4/10, hazy recall.

[Nytemare3701]

So...let me get this straight. The power level cap for the game shifted only a small amount (if at all), while drastically increasing thematic options for casters and gishes alike? This sounds like the makings of a wonderful permanent houserule.

EDIT: Made it a feat:

Magical Polyglot
Benefit: When you choose this feat, select a prestige class that has dead casting levels (defined as levels that do not progress casting in a class that does progress casting). You gain the benefits of full casting progression on those levels.
Normal: Dead casting levels do not progress your casting.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Each time it applies to a different prestige class.

[DavidWL]

So...let me get this straight. The power level cap for the game shifted only a small amount (if at all), while drastically increasing thematic options for casters and gishes alike? This sounds like the makings of a wonderful permanent houserule.

EDIT: Made it a feat:

Magical Polyglot
Benefit: When you choose this feat, select a prestige class that has dead casting levels (defined as levels that do not progress casting in a class that does progress casting). You gain the benefits of full casting progression on those levels.
Normal: Dead casting levels do not progress your casting.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Each time it applies to a different prestige class.

+1

[phaedrusxy]

So...let me get this straight. The power level cap for the game shifted only a small amount (if at all), while drastically increasing thematic options for casters and gishes alike? This sounds like the makings of a wonderful permanent houserule.

EDIT: Made it a feat:

Magical Polyglot
Benefit: When you choose this feat, select a prestige class that has dead casting levels (defined as levels that do not progress casting in a class that does progress casting). You gain the benefits of full casting progression on those levels.
Normal: Dead casting levels do not progress your casting.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Each time it applies to a different prestige class.

Why bother with the feat tax? Just give it to everyone for free. In my games, I have CL=ECL, for everyone, all the time. It both addresses this problem, and gets rid of all the shenanigans involving insanely boosted CLs via Red Wizard, etc. It also makes multiclassing with casters more viable (slightly).

[Amechra]

I kinda opened the second challenge already...

Take a glance! I thought of it while looking at some of the builds here.

[zook1shoe]

Ambient Tempest from the Revised Bestiary of Krynn is only 4/5... But has one of the best spell abilities at 2nd level (reverse Empower, Extend, or Widen spell for -1 spell level slot, aka fireball as a 2ndlevel spell)

[brujon]

My opinion is that this houserule would just make it even more evident that full casters are superior to melee types every time, 100% of the time. Basically no obstacle to have 9's, CL20 and 16 BAB by level 20, even though it is already doable with the classes we already have access to. Not sure if there are PrC's for wizards that grant full bab and casting progression before level 4...

[zook1shoe]

That's very true!

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

So really it should have been the inverse: All non-casting PrCs advance previous classes fully.

Why should PrCs advance casting almost by default on many, many PrCs while progressing your crappy monk abilities requires lots of digging?

[PsyBomb]

All I know is that every build I make even remotely able to enter it go out and grab Eldritch Knight 1. Just the first thing to occur to me.

[Forumowicz]

I don't think that +16 BaB is something that anyone should worry about on a caster. Melee classes aren't strong because of their BaB, so I don't think they would feel outclassed by a gish more than they would now. I like this houserule because it allows all those flavorful classes with partial casting increase come into play. I mean noone could find anything really broken and it just opens a lot of options for people who want their class to match thier character better, even if it is not the strongest choice. All those full casting PrCs are still the best, but now you can play things like Havoc Mage or Yathrinshee.

[emaNsdrawkcaB]

Why not go about it as the Martial Adepts do? Half CL in a non progressing class?

[brujon]

All I know is that every build I make even remotely able to enter it go out and grab Eldritch Knight 1. Just the first thing to occur to me.

Eldritch Knight is a surprisingly bad choice for a Mage that wants to go gish. It is, in fact, probably the worst choice. First level loses you a caster level and, in return, grants you a bonus feat... from the Fighter list. In effect, it is no different from taking Fighter 1, except for the slightly different skill list. Functionally, it is the same.

By comparison, Abjurant champion can be entered *without* taking levels in a class that grants full martial proficiency (just one will do), full BAB, a bonus to your already strong Will save, extended abjuration, which is basically Automatic Extend Spell for all abjuration spells, which is just plain awesome since it frees up lots of higher level slots, and it gives you Abjurant Armor, which is a free +1 to AC for any abjuration that increases it, just for the heck of it. *AND* you don't lose a caster level for any of it. The drawback is +5 BAB requirement, which means as single-class Wizard, it's not possible to qualify before level 10.

But there are many and more Full Bab/Full or Near Full casting PRC's out there for Arcane mages. Of them all, Eldritch Knight is probably the loser.

[sirpercival]

brujon, remember the houserule. EK nets you a bonus feat in this scenario, with no loss of CL.

[brujon]

brujon, remember the houserule. EK nets you a bonus feat in this scenario, with no loss of CL.

Well, duh, i forgot to take that into account. Even then, i just don't see a situation where EK would fare better than any of the other PrC's this would make a difference for. For example, Swiftblade would become a powerhouse. Eh, for filling up a dead level as a Wizard, maybe i see it, to increase the BAB faster and grabbing a feat, for qualification purposes.

[DavidWL]

So...let me get this straight. The power level cap for the game shifted only a small amount (if at all), while drastically increasing thematic options for casters and gishes alike? This sounds like the makings of a wonderful permanent houserule.

EDIT: Made it a feat:

Magical Polyglot
Benefit: When you choose this feat, select a prestige class that has dead casting levels (defined as levels that do not progress casting in a class that does progress casting). You gain the benefits of full casting progression on those levels.
Normal: Dead casting levels do not progress your casting.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Each time it applies to a different prestige class.

Actually, this feat already exists (sort of), it is called esoteric caster training, and it's in pathfinder ...

Best,
David

EDIT:  http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nv0k?Esoteric-Training-broken-or-just-what-we-needed

[JohnnyMayHymn]

 accidental post  :/

[Power]

Actually, it's not even a feat. It's a free, permanent benefit for having a fame score with a guild. You don't even need to spend Prestige Points to obtain it.

Eclectic Training (5 Fame): Guilds often require members to master and train in different subjects. When your Fame score in a guild reaches 5, choose one spellcasting class you have at least 1 level in—you increase your  effective caster level in that class (including the number of spells you know and can cast per day) by +1, to a maximum caster level equal to your total Hit Dice. Single-classed spellcasters should still pick a class to which this bonus applies, since this bonus is retroactive.

Esoteric Training (35 Fame): The bonus to caster level you gain from Eclectic Training increases to +3 (but is still limited by your total Hit Dice). You may select a second spellcasting class to gain a +1 bonus to effective caster level.

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This is just broken.

Now you're encouraged to dump spellcaster levels because what the heck, it'll progress anyway.