Author Topic: [Pathfinder] Optimizing the Paladin  (Read 31998 times)

Offline Zeroku

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[Pathfinder] Optimizing the Paladin
« on: October 20, 2013, 01:10:49 AM »
Class: Paladin
Race: Human
Level: 2
Stats: 15, 13, 12, 11, 7, 5
God: Apsu (Flavor, Not changing)
Role: Bruiser/Support
Group: Cavalier, Oracle, Rogue?, Towershield Fighter

Plan: Paladin 20
    or  Paladin -> Bard -> Dragon Disciple
----
Trying to make sure I stay at or above the power level of the rest of the group.  Only thing is I have never played a Paladin before.
I am trying to convince the DM to allow me to reroll the 5 but am going to assume he wont for now.

Can I get any love here? I am unsure of what to do right now and I don't want to be the crappy member in the back because of my stats. I am more than willing to roleplay the 5 in any stat it goes in.


Offline SolEiji

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Re: [Pathfinder] Optimizing the Paladin
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2013, 01:36:15 AM »
5, ouch.

Well good news, Paladin is boss in Pathfinder.  But lesse... you want Str, Con, and Cha.  Maybe Str 15, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 5, Wis 7, Cha 13?  You will be useless for skills but it hurts you the least.  With stats that low though, hope you're playing a super low-power game.  Cha needs buffing badly, but you still pull a +1 to attack and your class level in damage out of it, and 15 Str for fighting normally.

Be the best brain damaged paladin ever.  Be like George, George sometimes pet the demons to make them act nice but he pets them too hard and they explode all over his warhammer.  Oh nooo....
Mudada.

Offline StreamOfTheSky

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Re: [Pathfinder] Optimizing the Paladin
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2013, 02:46:55 AM »
You're a human, and a paladin.  Put the 5 in Int.  When you only get 2 + int skill points, anything below Int 8 doesn't actually hurt you anymore.  Then, between Human and favored class bonus, you can still get 3 skill points per level.

Sol's stat array is probably the best.  And yeah, that's a horrible set of rolls.  Did Pathfinder get rid of the 3E rule that "if the sum of all your bonuses and penalties adds up to less than +1, you get to call bullshit and reroll the entire set"?  Because that's totally a rule, and your stat bonuses right now are +2+1+1+0-2-3 = -1.

As a Paladin, and one with poor stats, you should give up any dreams of archery or TWF.  Sword and board is as bad in PF as it was in 3E, and having both becomes problematic when you actually want to cast a spell or use lay on hands.  So go 2H style.  You are the party tank, and the most effective way to do that is to do a lot of damage so enemies must pay heed to you.  Your defense may be lower, but therein lies one great advantage the PF paladin has: swift action self-healing w/ lay on hands.  It may seem selfish, but unless another PC desperately needs one of your mercies to clear a status effect, never waste a standard using LoH on someone else, nor out of combat.  Save it for yourself for the better action economy.  Make yourself a big enough target by damage-optimizing that being selfish with it is justified.

Beyond that, uh...general advice...
1. Power Attack is good.
2. Fey Foundling feat with LoH is pretty decent.  1st level only feat, though.
3. Eldritch Heritage can totally be worth it.  Either pick Arcane bloodline for a familiar, or if you can wait for 11th level and Imp. EH, pick Marid for an unlimited use 60 ft line area of effect attack that does damage and BLINDS foes.  To round out your arsenal.
4. Once you can get Mounted Skirmisher at level 14-15, the Saddle Surge spell becomes pretty incredible.  Before then, the spell is great with a bow.  And you can always dip Sohei Monk to get Mounted Skirmisher *extremely* early.
5. NEVER EVER take level 20 in Paladin!  Dip out!  The capstone makes your primary class feature completely worthless against the foes you most want/need it against.  It's appalling and embarrassing that after years of being out, paizo still hasn't fixed this problem.

EDIT: 3.5 PHB, page. 8
Quote from: REROLLING
If your scores are too low, you may scrap them and roll all six scores again.  Your scores are considered too low if the sum of your modifiers (before adjustments because of race) is 0 or lower, or if your highest score is 13 or lower.

If you do get saddled with horrible stats, I suggest you shelve the Paladin plans for another game and instead make a Synthesist Summoner.  Ultimately, all that character cares about is charisma and moderate constitution.  The rest is largely inconsequential.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 02:56:34 AM by StreamOfTheSky »

Offline SolEiji

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Re: [Pathfinder] Optimizing the Paladin
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2013, 02:57:05 AM »
I was not aware of an issue with the paladin's capstone.  I don't have it at hand right now and can't afford another tab to look it up, what is it?
Mudada.

Offline StreamOfTheSky

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Re: [Pathfinder] Optimizing the Paladin
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2013, 03:01:20 AM »
Here:

Quote
Holy Champion (Su)

At 20th level, a paladin becomes a conduit for the power of her god. Her DR increases to 10/evil. Whenever she uses smite evil and successfully strikes an evil outsider, the outsider is also subject to a banishment, using her paladin level as the caster level (her weapon and holy symbol automatically count as objects that the subject hates). After the banishment effect and the damage from the attack is resolved, the smite immediately ends. In addition, whenever she channels positive energy or uses lay on hands to heal a creature, she heals the maximum possible amount.

Do you see the problem here?  :shakefist :banghead :shakefist :banghead :shakefist :banghead

Offline Zeroku

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Re: [Pathfinder] Optimizing the Paladin
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2013, 12:05:23 PM »
Well, I was able to reroll both the 7 and the 5 getting me two 14s!
Which is pretty awesome, does anyone have any thoughts on Pally/Bard/DD? Or should I just dip into fighter to get out of Pally 20?

Offline StreamOfTheSky

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Re: [Pathfinder] Optimizing the Paladin
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2013, 12:17:14 PM »
I'm not a fan of DD, and I think while a Bard could find a lot to like with a 2-level Paladin dip for save bonuses; the reverse doesn't help nearly as much.  Just go Paladin.

With the new stats, I'd go:
Str 14, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 11, Cha 14

Though the order of Dex, Int, and Wis is largely up to your preference.  Dex 13 is required for numerous feats; Int 13 is required for Expertise and...I think that's it?

Don't worry about what to dip that last level into now, 20th is a long way away.  You don't have to wait for 20th, but you definitely don't need to rush it, either.  There are plenty of decent 1 level dips.  I quite like Freebooter Ranger for that.  Or there's the Sohei option, to get a high level mounted feat like Mounted Skirmisher stupidly freaking early.

EDIT: Or you could just, you know...ask your DM to remove the Banishment thing from the crapstone capstone.  Even if he amended it so that the smite only ends if you SUCCEED at banishing...I'd never want to use it.  The stuff you're fighting at 20 and finding worthy of a smite are stuff like Balors.  Those will *not* be summoned, but called.  If you banish a called fiend, it can be back in a day.  If you slay it outside its home plane... a) you get its loot! and b) It has to re-form and potentially gets demoted to a weaker fiend's body; IIRC the re-formation time is something insanely long (to a mortal) like 99 years.  I would never want to banish a powerful fiend I was smiting.  If the fight seemed hopeless, maybe.  But if I'm smiting...I'm adding Cha to attack, doing +20 damage, and ignoring its DR.  So...I'm shredding through it like a buzzsaw through tissue paper.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 12:21:15 PM by StreamOfTheSky »

Offline Zeroku

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Re: [Pathfinder] Optimizing the Paladin
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2013, 12:52:35 PM »
Thanks for the suggestions and help guys!
I still might go Bard -> DD for flavor and fun but I will have to see it might be moot depending on how long the game lasts!

Offline Power

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Re: [Pathfinder] Optimizing the Paladin
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2013, 03:00:12 PM »
Sacred Servant Paladin is probably the best archetype as it gives you access to a domain along with a free Planar Ally. For your domain, pick the Travel domain. It's one of Apsu's domains. You get permanent 10 feet extra movement speed (Cast Longstrider from your domain slot and you've got another +10 feet for 1 hour per caster level) and the other powers are good too. The free Planar Ally is 1/week but it's free so there's nothing stopping you from asking your Planar Ally to stick around and help for 1 entire week. Get the Magical Knack trait for a permanent +2 caster level bonus for your Paladin.

Combo Sacred Servant Paladin with the Oath of Vengeance, and you will have a lot of Smite Evil uses while using the Sacred Servant archetype.

As for Eldritch Heritage, I think it would be better to take the Orc Bloodline for the ridiculous strength buffs. The Touch of Rage power can also be useful later if you get Quicken Spell-Like Ability for it.

You should probably get the Focused Study alternate racial trait and get a 1st level Skill Focus in UMD then at 8th level get the skill focus prereq for Eldritch Heritage and at 9th and 11th you can take Eldritch Heritage and Improved Eldritch Heritage for your feats.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 08:53:21 PM by Power »

Offline CaptRory

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Re: [Pathfinder] Optimizing the Paladin
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2013, 06:39:45 PM »
If I were to run a paladin, and I'm just spit balling I haven't sat down and worked it all out, my first thought is two handed weapon with a focus on Use Magic Device. Take a trait that makes it a class skill if your GM allows traits, and with a decent charisma score which paladins should have, you could easily have a paladin beating guys with a big 2h sword running Shield from a wand of shield, with a few level 1 wands with really annoying effects.

If you get dispelled? So? I can guarantee the party casters will be throwing around better buffs than shield on themselves and others, so if the enemy wants to waste a Dispel Magic on your holy arse then you're saving the rest of the party some trouble.

The best way to be a tank is to be too dangerous and/or annoying to leave alone. Combining UMD with a big honkin' sword puts a foot in both categories.

Offline StreamOfTheSky

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Re: [Pathfinder] Optimizing the Paladin
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2013, 09:40:06 PM »
Oh, I forgot one of the best Paladin feats, though not one you need to take right away.  Unsanctioned Knowledge will let you add a spell to your list of your choice for each spell level 1-4, chosen from a couple other lists.

Really, just look at Ultimate Magic on the PRD.  It has like a dozen Paladin feats.  A handful are good, another 3-4 are decent, the rest are garbage.  Still, pretty good % of useful feats there.  Usually you're lucky to get 5% in a sea of trash.

Offline SolEiji

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Re: [Pathfinder] Optimizing the Paladin
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2013, 10:05:36 PM »
Quote
...the smite immediately ends....

Do you see the problem here?  :shakefist :banghead :shakefist :banghead :shakefist :banghead

Ah I see, I've always read it as "if the banishment is successful the smite ends" (which it would anyway, the target is gone), but yeah, if you read it the other way, by RAW, that's pretty stupid.

I'll chuck that into the "bad wording" category.  Something tells me that wasn't intended.
Mudada.

Offline Power

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Re: [Pathfinder] Optimizing the Paladin
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2013, 12:20:29 PM »
Dragon Disciple Prestige Class is pretty much never recommended for optimization, especially when you use the Bard class to qualify for it. You lose spellcasting levels, it advances none of the bard class mechanics, and the inherent bonus to strength can be obtained with Eldritch Heritage (Orc).

You walk out of it with gimp spells, gimp class features, and some nice stats. You asked for optimization advice, so here's our advice: Don't do Dragon Disciple.

If you're going Paladin, you may as well go all the way. Bards can benefit from dipping into Paladin for 1 or 2 levels but then you should go all the way as a Bard.

Offline TunFiskeMad

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Re: [Pathfinder] Optimizing the Paladin
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2013, 06:48:41 AM »
One could argue that 4 lvls of paladin wit oath of vengeance makes sense too for a bard.

Offline StreamOfTheSky

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Re: [Pathfinder] Optimizing the Paladin
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2013, 09:11:31 AM »
One could argue that 4 lvls of paladin wit oath of vengeance makes sense too for a bard.

Not really.  You've taken a TREMENDOUS blow to caster level and performance progression at that point.  Sure, you can smite several times per day, but that's giving you Cha bonus to hit, +4 damage, and ignore DR.  By then, you're almost qualifying for Clustered Shots, which makes DR of a single foe meaningless anyway.  The to hit and damage bonus is at the expense of another +1 from inspire courage (you gave up 4 bard levels, which is nearly the interval inspire improves at), benefiting all allies and used against all foes, not just one specific one at a time.

Two level dip, at least Magical Knack can erase the -2 CL (but not the lost spells known and per day)

Offline Power

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Re: [Pathfinder] Optimizing the Paladin
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2013, 03:30:13 PM »
One could argue that 4 lvls of paladin wit oath of vengeance makes sense too for a bard.
No, at that point, you've ruined your spells and your bardic performances. Even a 2 level dip is hard for a Bard. If Paladin 2 wasn't so very strong with Charisma to all saves along with Lay on Hands, it wouldn't be a viable Bard dip either.

With Paladin 3 you just pick up Fear and Disease immunities, while Paladin 2 already gave you great saving throws against these things. With Oath of Vengeance Paladin 4 you get some 4+ additional uses of smite evil, but 1 smite/day is usually enough for when you really need it. If you're actually planning on using Smite to hit everything then you might as well play Paladin all the way for the smite damage.

Two level dip, at least Magical Knack can erase the -2 CL (but not the lost spells known and per day)
Even the caster level loss is a blow to the Bard class. Normal Bards still take Magical Knack to get +2 Caster Level when they Inspire Greatness on themselves.