[3.P] AoO = standard action?

[ImperatorK]

I know it would open up some nifty options for martials (ToB maneuvers, some of the PF maneuvers, some feats like Vital Strike, aiding another), but I assume there are other things that could make this houserule problematic, for example spells. So, what would be the consequences of making AoOs be usable as standard actions?

[Garryl]

You mean letting you use a standard action when someone provokes an AoO instead of just a basic ol' single attack? The first oddity that comes to mind is that healing becomes much easier if you run around and around your healer, provoking AoOs that can be used for healing spells, instead of calmly waiting for a heal to be cast with the healer's standard action. Ditto for buff spells. Adjudicating how it should work with area effects that don't just affect that AoO's provoker but his 10 buddies within 20 feet as well is also a potential issue.

There are a lot of potential issues that arise depending on the exact nature of what you let people do with these new standard action AoOs. If you can clarify what limits you're planning to put on it, that would really help to identify what potential problems can arise. Anywhere from an unrestricted standard action to a standard action only usable to make an attack of some sort on the provoker will make different possibilities more or less obvious, and may require different refinements of the actual purpose behind the AoO mechanic.

[ImperatorK]

You mean letting you use a standard action when someone provokes an AoO instead of just a basic ol' single attack? The first oddity that comes to mind is that healing becomes much easier if you run around and around your healer, provoking AoOs that can be used for healing spells, instead of calmly waiting for a heal to be cast with the healer's standard action. Ditto for buff spells. Adjudicating how it should work with area effects that don't just affect that AoO's provoker but his 10 buddies within 20 feet as well is also a potential issue.

Well, there's a limit of 1 spell per round. And I would assume allies don't provoke.

There are a lot of potential issues that arise depending on the exact nature of what you let people do with these new standard action AoOs. If you can clarify what limits you're planning to put on it, that would really help to identify what potential problems can arise. Anywhere from an unrestricted standard action to a standard action only usable to make an attack of some sort on the provoker will make different possibilities more or less obvious, and may require different refinements of the actual purpose behind the AoO mechanic.

No restrictions so far.

[Garryl]

You mean letting you use a standard action when someone provokes an AoO instead of just a basic ol' single attack? The first oddity that comes to mind is that healing becomes much easier if you run around and around your healer, provoking AoOs that can be used for healing spells, instead of calmly waiting for a heal to be cast with the healer's standard action. Ditto for buff spells. Adjudicating how it should work with area effects that don't just affect that AoO's provoker but his 10 buddies within 20 feet as well is also a potential issue.

Well, there's a limit of 1 spell per round. And I would assume allies don't provoke.

Why wouldn't allies provoke? And if they don't, what's stopping you from declaring them to be enemies (so that they do provoke) when they move by you?

Is this a blanket change to spellcasting adding a 1/round limit? Is it intended to nerf/destroy Quicken, swift action spells, and the like?

There are a lot of potential issues that arise depending on the exact nature of what you let people do with these new standard action AoOs. If you can clarify what limits you're planning to put on it, that would really help to identify what potential problems can arise. Anywhere from an unrestricted standard action to a standard action only usable to make an attack of some sort on the provoker will make different possibilities more or less obvious, and may require different refinements of the actual purpose behind the AoO mechanic.

No restrictions so far.

Off the top of my head, just for dealing with melee folks in the simplest way, wield a reach weapon. Whenever anyone closes on you to attack in melee (without equal or greater reach), use your AoO-granted action to just move far away.

[ImperatorK]

Why wouldn't allies provoke?

Because it's silly?

And if they don't, what's stopping you from declaring them to be enemies (so that they do provoke) when they move by you?

The fact that they're not?

Is this a blanket change to spellcasting adding a 1/round limit? Is it intended to nerf/destroy Quicken, swift action spells, and the like?

That's RAW, actually.

[Garryl]

Is this a blanket change to spellcasting adding a 1/round limit? Is it intended to nerf/destroy Quicken, swift action spells, and the like?

That's RAW, actually.

Source, please? I've not come across such a rule in Pathfinder. Did I just miss it somewhere?

[ImperatorK]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Casting-Time

It's not very different from 3.5.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#castingTime

[SolEiji]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Casting-Time

It's not very different from 3.5.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#castingTime

I don't see a 1/round limit.

[ImperatorK]

"A spell with a casting time of 1 swift action doesn't count against your normal limit of one spell per round."

"A spell with a casting time of 1 free action doesn’t count against your normal limit of one spell per round."

[linklord231]

Interesting.  Normally, that rule ought not come up because you only have 1 standard action anyway, and swift and free action spells don't count against your one spell limit.  So in a normal game, the only character who would even notice would be a Factotum or someone with a Belt of Battle. 

Do any "alternative casting" systems have such a restriction?

[RobbyPants]

I know it would open up some nifty options for martials (ToB maneuvers, some of the PF maneuvers, some feats like Vital Strike, aiding another), but I assume there are other things that could make this houserule problematic, for example spells. So, what would be the consequences of making AoOs be usable as standard actions?

I see two obvious abuses:

1) Combat Reflexes would then allow you to take extra AoOs (read: standard actions) each round, which is odd.

2) The age old bag-of-rats trick would work rather nicely with the above trick. You release the bag of rats (or have a hireling or other party member do it, or whatever), and take lots of AoOs (again, read: standard actions) because of the rats. This would allow you to control when the AoOs are triggered instead of relying on your opponents. Also, you can take more AoOs than there are opponents because of the rats.

[Bauglir]

Interesting.  Normally, that rule ought not come up because you only have 1 standard action anyway, and swift and free action spells don't count against your one spell limit.  So in a normal game, the only character who would even notice would be a Factotum or someone with a Belt of Battle. 

Do any "alternative casting" systems have such a restriction?

Psionics does not seem to. I guess all the haters were right, in the end, for all the wrong reasons. Psionics really is broken.

[RedWarlock]

I would say it would work, as long as you specify that the standard action has to be mainly or involving an attack or offensive action of some kind against the provoking opponent. (and no declaring allies as enemies in order to provoke for the control, they have to change that classification for a damned good reason.)

[ImperatorK]

Maybe something like "The standard action has to be targeted at the provoking creature"?

[RobbyPants]

Maybe something like "The standard action has to be targeted at the provoking creature"?

That would definitely help. There might be a handful of AoE effects that you could use to hit the target and someone else, but that's about the only potential abuse I see at that point.

[ImperatorK]

Well, for now I have the houserule that an AoO is a standard action attack (instead just a single attack), which means there are some effects and abilities that can be applied to them. I'm just trying to find a way to take it a bit further, because AoOs have potential, they just don't work as intended by RAW.

[RobbyPants]

Well, for now I have the houserule that an AoO is a standard action attack (instead just a single attack), which means there are some effects and abilities that can be applied to them. I'm just trying to find a way to take it a bit further, because AoOs have potential, they just don't work as intended by RAW.

What do you mean they don't work as intended? Just that they aren't enough of a disincentive?

[ImperatorK]

Yes.