Author Topic: Dual Caster (PrC)  (Read 4713 times)

Offline RobbyPants

  • Female rat ninja
  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8325
    • View Profile
Dual Caster (PrC)
« on: December 06, 2013, 11:01:39 AM »
The idea here is I wanted to make a single PrC that can advance two casting classes at once, but something that is better than the Mystic Theruge and similar classes. I got to thinking about the Ultimate Magus, and the "caster level trick" you can pull to keep one class at near full ability while still gaining casting at a moderate rate in a second class. I decided to embrace the trick and base a new PrC around it.

Now, in addition to advancing casting, I wanted to advance the class features as well. As part of the house rules I've been working on (see my sig), I've been rewriting and adding classes that grant class features at each level. As a result, you have to really think about PrCing out of one of those classes. So, this class advances both (although not at the full rate. See the table below).

The idea is that you qualify for the class at 5th level, so you could wrap it up at 15th level. At that point, you would be casting as a 13th level caster in your primary class (with 14th level class features) and you would cast as a 9th level caster in your secondary class (with 8th level class features).

Note: I consider your caster level (for purposes of spell effects) to be equal to your character level at all times. Also, I have re-tooled the casting advancement of all the "9-level" classes to grant new spell levels on the odd levels and not the even levels. So, a 9th level caster in any of these classes would have 5th level spells.



Dual Caster

Prerequisites:

Skills: Spellcraft: 8 ranks.

Spellcasting: Ability to cast 2nd level spells granted from a class. Ability to cast 1st level spells granted from a different class.


Hit Die: d6.

Skill Points: 4 points per level.

Class Skills: Any skill that is a class skill for the two above-mentioned classes is a class skill for the Dual Caster.

Level  BAB   Fort  Ref   Will  Special
             Save  Save  Save 

_______________________________________________________________________________
1      +0    +0    +0    +2    Class features/spellcasting (primary, secondary)
2      +1    +0    +0    +3    Class features/spellcasting (primary, secondary)
3      +1    +1    +1    +3    Class features/spellcasting (primary)
4      +2    +1    +1    +4    Class features/spellcasting (primary, secondary)
5      +2    +1    +1    +4    Class features/spellcasting (secondary)
6      +3    +2    +2    +5    Class features/spellcasting (primary, secondary)
7      +3    +2    +2    +5    Class features/spellcasting (primary, secondary)
8      +4    +2    +2    +6    Class features/spellcasting (primary)
9      +4    +3    +3    +6    Class features/spellcasting (primary, secondary)
10     +5    +3    +3    +7    Class features/spellcasting (primary, secondary)


Class Features:

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: A Dual Caster does not gain any weapon or armor proficiencies.

Class Features/Spellcasting: To qualify to be a Dual Caster, you must be able to cast spells from two different classes. When you take your first level of Dual Caster, select one of these classes to be your primary class and the other to be your secondary class. If you have more than two casting classes, pick two of them (one primary and one secondary). Once this choice is made, it cannot be changed.
  Every level except 5th level, you gain the class features of your primary class as if you had gained another level in the class itself. This includes spellcasting abilities, such as spells known and spells per day. Every level except for 3rd and 8th, you gain the advance the class features and spellcasting of your secondary class as if you had gained another level in the class itself.
  If both classes grant the ability to have a familiar, you may only have one familiar at a time. Use the higher level class to determine the familiar's abilities. The same restriction applies to animal companions.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2013, 07:59:02 AM by RobbyPants »
My creations

Please direct moderation-related PMs to Forum Staff.

Offline Garryl

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 4515
    • View Profile
Re: Dual Caster (PrC)
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2013, 06:33:37 PM »
So, you give up 2 spellcasting levels and 1 class feature level from one class (and the opportunity to get sweet PrC abilities) in exchange for 9 spellcasting levels and 8 class feature levels from another class (assuming Primary 4/Secondary 1/Dual Caster 10)? Why does 1st level advance the class features of the primary class but the spellcasting of the secondary class?

Offline RobbyPants

  • Female rat ninja
  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8325
    • View Profile
Re: Dual Caster (PrC)
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2013, 08:28:16 PM »
So, you give up 2 spellcasting levels and 1 class feature level from one class (and the opportunity to get sweet PrC abilities) in exchange for 9 spellcasting levels and 8 class feature levels from another class (assuming Primary 4/Secondary 1/Dual Caster 10)?
Yes.


Why does 1st level advance the class features of the primary class but the spellcasting of the secondary class?
Basically, because. I wanted the primary class to lose out on two caster levels (1 from the prereqs and the other from the PrC), although that loss could potentially be pushed back a bit. I didn't see any reason not to grant all of the class features of the class in the PrC. I'm open to some alternate progressions, but I think you get the basic idea I was going for with what I posted.

What do you think? I feel from a char-op point of view, you're probably better going straight-classed, but this might offer a bit of a compromise to someone who wants to branch out and play two types of casters. With the house rules I'm working on, all classes are build sort of like the beguiler and dread necromancer: specialized, lacking the win-button for every situation, yet still competent.
My creations

Please direct moderation-related PMs to Forum Staff.

Offline Garryl

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 4515
    • View Profile
Re: Dual Caster (PrC)
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2013, 09:23:20 PM »
Maybe move the lost primary class caster level lost to a later class level? You're already losing one just before you enter the PrC in order to multiclass into a second caster class. Maybe at level 4 or 5 instead of at level 1. It's like taking an 8/10 progression PrC where the lost levels are at levels 1 and 2.

A concern about progressing class features 1 level more than spellcasting is that some classes have abilities that alter or depend on spellcasting. For example, if a class feature required you to sacrifice spell slots of a given level, this might give you the feature 1 level before you get the spell slots with which to actually use it, making it useless for a level. Or, a class might give the ability to cast higher level spells through alternate means that would normally mean extra spells, but with the lost caster level but retained class features level, would actually provide the spells that the lost caster level was meant to remove. Progressing spellcasting without class features is fine because spellcasting is self-contained, but class features interact with a lot more than just themselves.

Another oddity about 1st level progressing class features of one class and spellcasting of the other is that it's the only level to do so. All other levels progress class features and spellcasting of a given class in tandem. Bonus points is that, as the only level to progress only secondary spellcasting, while also fitting in the pattern of levels that only give primary class benefits, it looks a lot like a typo the first read-through or two.

Offline RobbyPants

  • Female rat ninja
  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8325
    • View Profile
Re: Dual Caster (PrC)
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2013, 11:17:20 PM »
A concern about progressing class features 1 level more than spellcasting is that some classes have abilities that alter or depend on spellcasting. For example, if a class feature required you to sacrifice spell slots of a given level, this might give you the feature 1 level before you get the spell slots with which to actually use it, making it useless for a level. Or, a class might give the ability to cast higher level spells through alternate means that would normally mean extra spells, but with the lost caster level but retained class features level, would actually provide the spells that the lost caster level was meant to remove. Progressing spellcasting without class features is fine because spellcasting is self-contained, but class features interact with a lot more than just themselves.
Good point. It'd be like the dread necro getting that iconic undead mastery ability at level 8, but not being able to cast Animate Dead.

I had considered bumping that back to something like 5th level, and putting the gaps in secondary casting at 3rd and 8th levels. The idea here is that there would be a break point of sorts. If you wanted to only lose one caster level, you could take four levels of the PrC. That, plus the other four levels would likely net you 4th level casting in your secondary class to get you 2nd level spells. It's not a bad trade off. Then, if you want to take it further, you have to lose your 2nd level.

So, how about something like this:
Level  Class Features       Spellcasting
______________________________________________
1      primary, secondary   primary, secondary
2      primary, secondary   primary, secondary
3      primary              primary
4      primary, secondary   primary, secondary
5      secondary            secondary
6      primary, secondary   primary, secondary
7      primary, secondary   primary, secondary
8      primary              primary
9      primary, secondary   primary, secondary
10     primary, secondary   primary, secondary

So, you lose to secondary levels over 10 (8/10) and one of your primary (9/10). For simplicity, I mapped the class features exactly to the casting rather than the odd staggered thing I did before. End results:

If you bail out at 4th level, to avoid the extra hit to your primary class, you will be a 9th level character with 8th level abilities and casting in your primary class and 4th level in your secondary class. Presumably, you will PrC out to a class that advances your base class, or simply revert back to your base class. You will be forever stuck at 4th level in your base class, but that's not bad, depending on your goals.

If you take the PrC until 10th level, you lose your second level at 10th character level. So at 15th character level, your primary class is 13th level and your secondary is 9th level. Caster level and class features are in sync. Again, it could be worth it. It depends on your specific goals.

Is that better?

(Also, bear in mind I'm assuming no Ur Priest/Beholder Mage-type casting advancement shenanigans).
My creations

Please direct moderation-related PMs to Forum Staff.

Offline Garryl

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 4515
    • View Profile
Re: Dual Caster (PrC)
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2013, 11:52:37 AM »
Yup, it flows much more smoothly now.

... Now I'm wondering how much work it would take to change this from 2 caster classes to 2 base classes of any sort, and if there would be any sort of balance issues. Mostly just setting up a formula for skills, saves, HD, and BAB based on what your primary and secondary classes gave you, and tweaking the entry requirements.

Offline phaedrusxy

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 10717
  • The iconic spambot
    • View Profile
Re: Dual Caster (PrC)
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2013, 04:31:26 PM »
Yup, it flows much more smoothly now.

... Now I'm wondering how much work it would take to change this from 2 caster classes to 2 base classes of any sort, and if there would be any sort of balance issues. Mostly just setting up a formula for skills, saves, HD, and BAB based on what your primary and secondary classes gave you, and tweaking the entry requirements.
I wondered the same thing when I first popped in here and looked at it. :D At that point, you've basically reinvented 2nd edition multiclassing, though.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2013, 04:43:23 PM by phaedrusxy »
I don't pee messages into the snow often , but when I do , it's in Cyrillic with Fake Viagra.  Stay frosty my friends.

Offline RobbyPants

  • Female rat ninja
  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8325
    • View Profile
Re: Dual Caster (PrC)
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2013, 07:37:34 PM »
Yeah, the BAB and saves are the weirdest part if you treat this like a normal 3E PrC. For example, this sort of sucks for cleric or druid-like casters that expect a good Fort save, d8 HD, and 3/4 BAB.

I suppose you could do some averaging, but it might be a pain. If nothing else, it'd be a fun thought exercise.
My creations

Please direct moderation-related PMs to Forum Staff.

Offline RobbyPants

  • Female rat ninja
  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8325
    • View Profile
Re: Dual Caster (PrC)
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2013, 07:59:28 AM »
I updated the OP and consolidated the entry slightly.
My creations

Please direct moderation-related PMs to Forum Staff.

Offline veekie

  • Spinner of Fortunes
  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 5423
  • Chaos Dice
    • View Profile
Re: Dual Caster (PrC)
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2013, 03:34:27 AM »
Somehow it seems that specialized dual casting might work better thematically though. Like the True Necromancer fusing arcane and divine spells with his own unique features. A true school specialist.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline Amechra

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4560
  • Thread Necromancy a specialty
    • View Profile
Re: Dual Caster (PrC)
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2013, 05:41:46 AM »
If you wanted to do averaging, I'd say just go with one step worse than the better side of the multiclass, unless that would reduce it to lower than the worse side.

So, if you did Duskblade and Wizard, you'd get 3/4ths BAB. A Druid and a Cleric would get 3/4th BAB. A Wizard/Sorcerer would get 1/2 BAB.

And so on and so forth.
"There is happiness for those who accept their fate, there is glory for those that defy it."

"Now that everyone's so happy, this is probably a good time to tell you I ate your parents."

Offline RobbyPants

  • Female rat ninja
  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8325
    • View Profile
Re: Dual Caster (PrC)
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2013, 07:56:15 AM »
Somehow it seems that specialized dual casting might work better thematically though. Like the True Necromancer fusing arcane and divine spells with his own unique features. A true school specialist.
I think those classes can be pretty good, although you really have to tailor each PrC specifically. Given the number of casting classes that exists, plus all the one's I've added in my own home brew, the number of PrCs I'd have to write would be staggering. The best I could do would be to write up a few "specialist" features for each base class, and advance them based on your primary and secondary classes.

The point of the PrC was really a way to make a "generalist" by mixing two classes, but in a way that didn't kick you in the balls as hard as the Mystic Theruge seems to like to.
My creations

Please direct moderation-related PMs to Forum Staff.

Offline RobbyPants

  • Female rat ninja
  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8325
    • View Profile
Re: Dual Caster (PrC)
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2013, 10:20:06 AM »
If you wanted to do averaging, I'd say just go with one step worse than the better side of the multiclass, unless that would reduce it to lower than the worse side.

So, if you did Duskblade and Wizard, you'd get 3/4ths BAB. A Druid and a Cleric would get 3/4th BAB. A Wizard/Sorcerer would get 1/2 BAB.

And so on and so forth.
I started a new thread for that PrC. It's mostly a thought exercise at this point, but it might be viable.
My creations

Please direct moderation-related PMs to Forum Staff.