Duskblade + Dimension Hop + AoOs

[NunoM]

Erm... Just thought of this and i wonder if i'm thinking straight, because the effect is quite awesome, IMO!

Let's say a Duskblade arcane meets his opponents in open ground and decides to channel a "Dimension Hop" spell with a full attack (13th level ability) to strike them.
Let's assume the opponents are hit, take weapon damage and fail their STs.
The Duskblade decides to teleport them 30ft in the air straight above.

Here's the deal...
As the foes fall down (provided they can't fly, of course), they:
- Cause AoOs from the Duskblade as they leave a threatened square (from 5ft in the air to the ground)
- Receive falling damage
- Are now prone in the same squares they were attacked in the first place.

Correct?

[linklord231]

Unfortunately, you can't teleport something into the air. 

A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

Now, you could make the argument that that line doesn't apply because you're not transporting the creature "to your location," but that's stupid. 

[NunoM]

I'm not arguing, i'm just trying to figure it out...

Other than the "that's stupid" argument, can you provide me with another one?

The "Dimension Hop" spell is clearly something the caster uses to teleport creatures away from him. I mean, it's a touch spell, so the caster has to be close enough to touch the target by normal means. Of course the caster can also teleport himself, but unlike many other "Conjuration (Teleport)" spells, "Dimension Hop" doesn't include the caster as the target. Can this spell be an exception to the rule you mentioned?
How far do the targets have to be teleported to no longer be qualified as being "transported to your location"?

If we were talking about a spell like "Regroup" (another one that doesn't include the caster) i would wholeheartedly agree...

[phaedrusxy]

Unfortunately, you can't teleport something into the air. 

A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

Now, you could make the argument that that line doesn't apply because you're not transporting the creature "to your location," but that's stupid.

I'm not sure it is stupid... How do you ever teleport within something like the Plane of Air, where there are no solid landmasses? Due to the way it is worded, the "brought into being" part seems separate from the "to your location" part. So this would prohibit you from ever summoning/calling a creature in mid-air, in order to drop it on someone. But I'm not sure it applies to teleportation effects that don't transport something "to your location".

[linklord231]

Sorry, it's not stupid as in "only an idiot would make that argument", it's stupid as in "the ramifications of that are absurd."  Why bother teleporting someone straight up when you can put them up to their ears in the ground?  Dimension hop doesn't have the normal provisions for being shunted out if you accidentally appear inside something, which means you're just stuck there unless you have Earthglide.  Or you could Plane Shift someone offensively, and they'd have a chance of falling 500 miles. 
Based on that, I'd say the intent is to have that limitation apply to all Summoning, Calling, and Teleportation spells, not just ones that bring something to you. 

[altpersona]

would make a nice wondrous item or what not.

'when a successful hit is made with the item, the target is a subject to the effects of the Dimension Hop spell'

or something like that. that way your aoo can report them back up. 

[NunoM]

Sorry, it's not stupid as in "only an idiot would make that argument", it's stupid as in "the ramifications of that are absurd."  Why bother teleporting someone straight up when you can put them up to their ears in the ground?  Dimension hop doesn't have the normal provisions for being shunted out if you accidentally appear inside something, which means you're just stuck there unless you have Earthglide.  Or you could Plane Shift someone offensively, and they'd have a chance of falling 500 miles. 
Based on that, I'd say the intent is to have that limitation apply to all Summoning, Calling, and Teleportation spells, not just ones that bring something to you.

"Dimension Hop" states that the destination must be an unoccupied square within line of sight, so the caster can't teleport the targets into the ground or a wall.

Now, i've looked into the Conjuration school more closely and it does appear to widen the scope to everything related to teleport as well. Especially with this sentence:

conjuration
[...]
It [the creature or object] must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

That being said, does this include teleport related woundrous items, like "Anklets of Translocation"?
The reason i'm asking is that a player of mine, wearing this item, recently teleported 10ft. down and away from a balcony, avoiding a AoO from a bad guy. It's hard to describe, but he did teleport into mid-air and floated down with his "Ring of Feather Fall".
Following this reasoning, he couldn't have done that, right?

[linklord231]

That's the same thing I quoted earlier
In context, it's clearly referring to "a creature or object brought in to being or teleported to your location by a conjuration spell."

[NunoM]

^^^
Precisely, but your emphasis was on the sentence prior to that one. That single "." divides and conquers in this case...

So, does this extend to teleport related items?

[Unbeliever]

I've thought of things similar, and I probably wouldn't mind someone teleporting baddies 30 ft. in the air.  I probably wouldn't even mind a full on Teleport spell sending someone a mile in the air since save or die isn't exactly novel in D&D.  And, as far as those go, it's kind of a crappy one. 

That's all in the "rules be damned" camp, though, so ymmv. 

I do generally follow a principle that you don't get AoOs from movement that you force an enemy to do unless it specifically states otherwise.  That seems to be a general rule, but is never spelled out.  I think I might have cribbed it from 4E. 

So, in answer to the OP: 
No AoOs
Yes falling damage
Yes prone but with a free skill check to see if they landed on their feet, just as if they had fallen normally. 

That'd be my ruling at the table, so view that as off the cuff.  Others in this thread are already parsing the text.

[phaedrusxy]

I do generally follow a principle that you don't get AoOs from movement that you force an enemy to do unless it specifically states otherwise.  That seems to be a general rule, but is never spelled out.  I think I might have cribbed it from 4E. 

That's not a rule in 3.X. In fact, the exact opposite is the truth. If you move, you draw AoOs for it, unless specifically stated otherwise.

And you can't use Teleport offensively, as it only works on "willing targets", which I think is the case for most teleportation type spells in D&D. The ones I can think of that can be used offensively can only transport you short distances, where the falling damage is typically in line with the level of the spell. Now... if you're near a cliff, they could be a lot more effective with this interpretation... And of course, there are specific class abilities (and feats and/or magic items?) that allow you to use spells on enemies that you typically can't (Arcane Archer's "Imbue Arrow", etc). So you could in theory Teleport someone into outer space (or the stratosphere), if we take the narrow view on these restrictions.

I'm kind of on the fence on what I think of this, both RAW and RAI (and Rule of Cool).

[Unbeliever]

I do generally follow a principle that you don't get AoOs from movement that you force an enemy to do unless it specifically states otherwise.  That seems to be a general rule, but is never spelled out.  I think I might have cribbed it from 4E. 

That's not a rule in 3.X. In fact, the exact opposite is the truth. If you move, you draw AoOs for it, unless specifically stated otherwise.

I was under the impression that most of them state otherwise, which is why I adopted the general rule.  Bull rushing is the one that comes to mind.  I'd be open to examples of forced movement that doesn't say otherwise, but it's not a big bone of contention for me.  It seems like it'd rarely come up.  Just if you had an example at your fingertips I'd be curious.

[NunoM]

And you can't use Teleport offensively, as it only works on "willing targets", which I think is the case for most teleportation type spells in D&D. The ones I can think of that can be used offensively can only transport you short distances, where the falling damage is typically in line with the level of the spell.

This is the case for "Dimension Hop", as it allows a WILL save to prevent teleportation.

Now... if you're near a cliff, they could be a lot more effective with this interpretation...

This reminded me of something (and threw me off a bit)! In the Dictum Mortuum's Duskblades Handbook, there's a specific mention:

Dimension Hop is interesting when you want the enemies away from you, or throw them down a cliff.

... and this tactic is mentioned again when the spell is evalluated further on the text.

Is this the author's failed interpretation speaking (i noticed a few glitches in his advices as well), or can the spell be really used this way?
How can you throw a creature off a cliff with this spell, if you can only teleport it to a "surface capable of supporting" it?

[phaedrusxy]

I do generally follow a principle that you don't get AoOs from movement that you force an enemy to do unless it specifically states otherwise.  That seems to be a general rule, but is never spelled out.  I think I might have cribbed it from 4E. 

That's not a rule in 3.X. In fact, the exact opposite is the truth. If you move, you draw AoOs for it, unless specifically stated otherwise.

I was under the impression that most of them state otherwise, which is why I adopted the general rule.  Bull rushing is the one that comes to mind.  I'd be open to examples of forced movement that doesn't say otherwise, but it's not a big bone of contention for me.  It seems like it'd rarely come up.  Just if you had an example at your fingertips I'd be curious.

The burden of proof is on you. The rules state that leaving a threatened square draws an AoO, and make no exception about whether such movement is "forced" or not. Individual exceptions/clarifications are only examples of "specific trumps general", unless there is some general rule out there somewhere that I'm not aware of which states that forced movement doesn't draw AoOs.

[NunoM]

Sorry for bumping this, but there's still a small question remaining, mentioned above, but i repeat it here:
- How can one send an opponent off a cliff - as mentioned by phaedrusxy and in the Duskblade's handbook - with "Dimension Hop"?
1. Is this a misinterpretation of the spell and, as such, the general rule for conjuration spells is applied.
2. You can actually do this, as it requires a Will ST, so it can be used as an offensive spell.

TY

[Demelain]

You just designate the destination location to be in the open air.
As written, I believe that the conjuration rules allow for you to use Conjuration to teleport a creature into open air - see the quoted rules above, and the interpretation Linklord calls "stupid."
I'd agree it's open to abuse and a little silly in some cases, but that's nothing new when dealing with 3.5 magic. That same hole is also what allows you to erroneously teleport into rocks or miles up in the air, or to use the shunting rules to gain extra distance on dimensional travel. Seems like more hassle than its worth to "fix" it, but that's my opinion.

[Nickname Jr.]

you can't use Teleport offensively... in D&D [except in very limited ways].  I'm kind of on the fence on what I think of this.

  Me too.  It's the need for fair deaths that keeps offensive teleporting to a minimum.  Let people do this tele-kill technique and there'd be groaner deaths aplenty.   So that's the plus side, but the downside is once again movie villains are cooler than D&D allows, like that Mephistopheles guy from X-Men First Class who could airmail foes into the sky with him and then wisk himself away to safety to let them plummet alone.... unless they thought quickly and held on to him so they'd be included in his next jump as well.  But the fun of offensive teleporting is denied us, all for the sake of the community!  Most non-fliers would be pissed off by getting dumped in the sky.  They'd be all, "I ain't got time for this!"

The floating disc compromise:  get "some" offensive teleporting without it becoming constant, and it comes with an action tax to slow you down a little.   Step one: establish a tenacious floating disc at 30' that's difficult to spot and even you forget it's there.  Then send people to this "surface" and reliably self-dispel the disc for a few rounds till it recharges.

[NunoM]

Bumping this up again, because i've just seen some more food for thought.

The "Dimension Jumper" spell specifically mentions:

DIMENSION JUMPER
[...]
If you don't end your teleport on a solid surface, you fall immediately.

Ironically, it's the very last sentence of the spell's description, apparently placed there for the single purpose of making us wonder again!
Anyway, this seems to imply that an empty square in the air is a valid target for someone using a "Conjuration [Teleportation]" spell, at least for short range, regardless if it's an "offensive" or "defensive" spell... provided, of course:
a) the caster has line of sight to the target square (avoids teleporting someone into a wall or into the ground)
b) line of effect to the target square (same as above)
c) beats the resistance of the target creature (SR and/or a probable Will save)

This would at least explain the tactics mentioned in the Duskblade's handbook and by Phaedrusxy (the "dropping creatures off a cliff" thing).

[ksbsnowowl]

you can't use Teleport offensively... in D&D [except in very limited ways].  I'm kind of on the fence on what I think of this.

  Me too.  It's the need for fair deaths that keeps offensive teleporting to a minimum.  Let people do this tele-kill technique and there'd be groaner deaths aplenty.   So that's the plus side, but the downside is once again movie villains are cooler than D&D allows, like that Mephistopheles guy from X-Men First Class who could airmail foes into the sky with him and then wisk himself away to safety to let them plummet alone.... unless they thought quickly and held on to him so they'd be included in his next jump as well.  But the fun of offensive teleporting is denied us, all for the sake of the community!  Most non-fliers would be pissed off by getting dumped in the sky.  They'd be all, "I ain't got time for this!"

Bar-lgura's can do this. In Expedition to Castle Ravenloft the is a bar-lgura with listed tactics to do exactly this.

[NunoM]

I'm assuming the teleport spell also grants a WILL save.
In that case, if the bad guys can teleport into thin air, so should the PCs (?)...

I'm trying to find a "Yes/No" answer to this.

The guys in my gaming group suggested a thing based on willingness (for lack of a better word).
Sort of like this: "If a creature/character willingly teleports to an empty space, then it's ok. If it's independent or the creature's isn't willing, it's outright denied by the description in the conjuration school".

I don't exactly agree, because that's what a WILL save is for, right?