Gish Kobold (Low Op Group)

[hungrygnome]

Im starting a 3.5 campaign with a low op group.  Just about anything will fly as long as I can point to the rules regarding it.  I have already decided on a Kobold Gish (the improved one from the web enhacement).  Party consists of mainly players still kinda new to 3.5.  The wizard is the only person I trust to play his role competently.   Other than that, we have a cleric and druid ( both are barely able to understand the system ), a rogue (with the air subtype at 0 LA, if this tells you what the DM will let fly), a ninja, and a Kusari gama focused Warforged fighter.

This is what I have come up with so far, and looking for input about anything I could change.   NO im not doing Loredrake, or anything with epic feats.   Convincing the DM to allow me a dragon psycosis was about as far as I was going to go with the cheese.

GM assigns us all 18, 16, 16, 14, 14, 12.  We are supposed to be heroes, and this way no one complains they got shoddy stat rolls.
I dont see this campaign going very far at the moment, so no higher than 10th level character plan outs, as its a slow campaign.

Spellhording (Dragon 313, psychosis) Desert Kobold Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 3
Venerable (with Dragonwroght, of course)

So im looking at -4 STR, -3 WIS, +2 DEX, +5 INT, +3 CHA.

STR 14
DEX 16
CON 16
INT 21
WIS 11
CHA 15

Feats so far are Dragonwrought and Power Attack.  Weapons selected are Greatsword with Weapon Focus for it (Startwart Sorcerer) and Longsword (Battle Sorcerer)

I have taken the lesser rite, but am not taking the greater rite ( as thats pouring on too much cheese with already being equal casting as a wizard from spellhoarding)

So, what do you all think I should take as my lesser rite spell?  Anything you can see I can blatantly improve without splatbook delving too much? 

AND DO NOT TURN THIS INTO A "ARE KOBOLDS TRUE DRAGONS OR NOT" DISCUSSION.  I was allowed spellhoarding, and am NOT going any dragon archetype(loredrake, wyrm of war, etc..)

[Iainuki]

I don't know what all you're using, I'm not that familiar with Dragon material.  What do spellhoarding, lesser rite, and greater rite do?

Anyway, this build has some problems.  To be blunt, both stalwart and battle sorcerer have the same problem: you pay a permanent penalty to your spellcasting for improvements to your sorcerer levels.  With so few spells known, a stalwart battle sorcerer is extremely hobbled with respect to both combat and utility spellcasting, and since sorcerer has no class features, it's almost always better to find an appropriate PrC and take as few sorcerer levels as possible.  That's one problem.  The second problem is that you're trying to melee with a Small race with -4 Str, and you have no source of bonus damage beyond whatever buffs you're casting.  Buffs that take actions in combat can't in general replace class features or feats that add passive damage.  Effective melee while Small usually involves Weapon Finesse.  Third, I don't see what Power Attack is doing for you at 1st level.  Eventually, you might run Power Attack and wraithstrike.  Fourth, I don't understand your stat distribution.  Why is Int so high and Cha so low?

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Fighter 4 with the Kobold racial ACFs
would fit fine with a "Low Op Group".
Just tell them you're trying to keep up with Gnomes.

[Jackinthegreen]

Going strength-based melee on a race that has a strength penalty, especially one that's small, is just asking for trouble.  You're gimping sorcerer by taking both battle and stalwart.  Though it does at least make getting into Abjurant Champion easier.

[muktidata]

Spellhoarding changes your caster stat? If not, why the dumped Cha?

[hungrygnome]

Let me clarify: Im looking for advice on how to make this a better GISH, if at all.   I know the pitfalls of melee VS spellcasting.  Its for flavor and fun, not sheer power.   If I wanted that, Id play my usual druids.


Spellhoarding is a dragon psycosis.  It trades in all sorcerer spellcasting for casting as a wizard.  AKA all I traded away from stalwart and battle sorcerer ( as the specify SORCERER Spell slots) gets traded for the benefits, at no loss.  This works because I still technically have the sorcerer casting, as its a curable condition ( though the cure is years in an antimagic field).  So I take Stalwart and battle sorcerer for the benefits they provide, at no downside.   So im casting as a wizard of my level, with 3/4 BAB, and double my level in extra HP. There are some other nice benefits going along with spellhoarding, like an improved counterspell, free scribe scroll and eschew materials, and my spellbook is my scales (so it cant be taken away).  Also, +2 INT, -4 WIS goes with it.  Thus the racial modifiers I input.

The downside?  I cant specialize in a school, as that is unique to the wizard class, and I am still a sorcerer, I just cast as a wizard.

Lesser rite is unique to kobolds in that they sacrifice 1 HP, and a gem, and they gain a 1/day sorc/wiz spell of choice.

Please do not try and hash out the legality of this.   Other places on the board consider this valid, as does my DM, and thats all that matters here.   Yes, there are "more powerful" ways I could do this as a straight caster, but this is a low op group, and im going for something I can enjoy playing, not just straight save or suck casting.    Nothing says "HAHA" better than your monster dying by the hands of a single kobold in MELEE.   

[X-Codes]

You're not really trading away the Battle/Stalwart Sorcerer stuff for no benefit, then.  You're trading away the ability to Specialize for more spells per day and the ability to take Collegiate Wizard for more spells "known."

I think you're going to have an easier time just going straight Sorcerer and taking some Fighter levels with the Armored Mage ACF from Complete Mage.  Going Fighter 2/Sorcerer 6 only delays your entry into Abjurant Champion by 1 level compared to Battle Sorcerer 7, and you'll still be able to use light armor for protection early instead of relying on Mage Armor before you start taking Abjurant Champion levels.  Abjurant Champion also means you can cheap out on your 0% ACF gear -- Githcraft Bucklers and Padded Armor instead of Mithril Twilight Chain Shirt nonsense -- and spend more, instead, on interesting modifiers instead of rote ACF reducers.

[Jackinthegreen]

You explicitly said in the first post that your DM is letting this work, and that's all that needs to be said for the vast majority of people here, if not all of them.  We haven't and won't badger you about the rules being technically legal.

I'm not really seeing much you can branch off Power Attack with.  You don't have Jump as a class skill, thus Leap Attack won't work.  Small size means Improved Bull Rush on its own is mostly going to be useless.  Going into Shock Trooper from Imp Bull Rush later on might be worth it to do some better charging with PA, but it seems unlikely you'll be able to do much with bull rushing unless you use spells for it.

I suppose the good news is you can quicken spells properly due to prepping stuff like a wizard.  Using Quicken on True Strike might become viable later on if you want a huge hit.  As mentioned, Abjurant Champion might work for gishing it up.  You won't be using Luminous Armor I'd expect, but the Shield spell could still prove useful especially since it won't cause issues with using a 2-hander.  Full BAB and no caster level loss is great.

[muktidata]

It doesn't work like you think it does:

1) Kobolds can't be considered dragons.
2) The stalwart sorceror stuff isn't going to work since you're using spellhoarding.

Did you even CHECK with your DM before you came up with this craziness? I wouldn't let you play this at my table..

[X-Codes]

It doesn't work like you think it does:

1) Kobolds can't be considered dragons.
2) The stalwart sorceror stuff isn't going to work since you're using spellhoarding.

Did you even CHECK with your DM before you came up with this craziness? I wouldn't let you play this at my table..

Well, you're probably not his DM, then, since his DM is, EXPLICITLY, letting him play this at HIS table, so why do we care about your opinion of the rules right now?  That's right, we don't.

[hungrygnome]

It doesn't work like you think it does:

1) Kobolds can't be considered dragons.
2) The stalwart sorceror stuff isn't going to work since you're using spellhoarding.

Did you even CHECK with your DM before you came up with this craziness? I wouldn't let you play this at my table..

If you dont understand a build in full, DONT COMMENT about how it works.  Likely, the part you dont understand, is the part that makes it work.

Dragonwrought feat MAKES their type dragon.    And I still have the sorceror spellcasting, IF THE CONDITION WAS CURED, so spellhoarding just overwrites the sorcerer. Think of it in terms as I apply everything pertaining to sorcerer first, benefits and penalties, then overwrite the spellcasting and replace it with a wizards.   I still have the sorcerer abilities,BECAUSE ITS A CURABLE CONDITION,  so I can trade away any and all abilities regarding it, just spellhoarding blankets over top of them all with a replacement.

Regarding Power attack, thats the kind of advice im looking for.  What feats to take, and where to go with them.  I only considered power attack as a way for a little bonus damage, not as to what I could chain off it with.

[xzyx]

I understand sorcerer is sort of something you are looking for, and if you are dead set on the sorcerer-with-psychosis thing, then please ignore my post.

But have you ever pondered over the possibility of a DEX-based Duskblade?

You take weapon finesse and find out some way not to use strength in melee damage, you can dump STR and stay all fight attacking and channeling spells with your sword/hammer/axe/oversized chicken leg.

It's a nice class, very well done and can fit a low or even medium OP party you can play without much complexity. Also, the first 10ish levels are quite good, so you won't need to prestige out of it. And the fluff of a kobold duskblade is cool. If you want some variation, you could also take 1 or 2 levels of spellthief and get the master spellthief feat to steal enemy spells and use them to recharge your own, tough I don't even think that is terribly necessary. (but it's still fun using their abilities against themselves). Also, master spellthief allows you to cast in armor to boot, but duskblade already does that.

If you are dead set on sorcerer, a build consisting of Sorcerer 2/Kobold Paragon 3/ Your favorite prestige class (look for the paragon classes in the SRD, adds 2/3 casting, some weapon and armor proficiencies, and +2 CHA, and has no pre-requisites other than being a kobold) will allow you to keep a good sorcerer casting, have proficiencies and generally build a sorcerer-based gish without having to use insane cheese like dragon psychosis.

[hungrygnome]

I did consider Duskblade.   Its still a potential possibility, also.   The only thing I dislike about Duskblade is the narrow amount of spells they have access to, and how much GM work it would take to expand their spell list.  I just like the flexibility that I got from the original build.

The dragon psychosis was for the fact that it mechanically made the build stronger, while also using your scales as a spellbook with a unique learning method was visually appealing for the character. (Imagine a black and red scaled kobold with glowing blue runes covering it all over)

I am unaware of any other way besides prestige classes that you can apply anything other than STR to melee damage though.

[Raineh Daze]

I am unaware of any other way besides prestige classes that you can apply anything other than STR to melee damage though.

Some feats from Tome of Battle when in a Shadow Hand stance, I think?

This one.

[hungrygnome]

I had completely forgotten about Tome of Battle.   A swordsage would be a good substitute as a gish, while not having to jump through alot of hoops.

[X-Codes]

Another option is to use what I call a "lightsaber."  Decastave from some OP Faerun book (Unapproachable East?) is the strongest such spell, but Races of the Dragon has an interesting potential alternative in Dragon Tail.

[muktidata]

It doesn't work like you think it does:

1) Kobolds can't be considered dragons.
2) The stalwart sorceror stuff isn't going to work since you're using spellhoarding.

Did you even CHECK with your DM before you came up with this craziness? I wouldn't let you play this at my table..

If you dont understand a build in full, DONT COMMENT about how it works.  Likely, the part you dont understand, is the part that makes it work.

Dragonwrought feat MAKES their type dragon.    And I still have the sorceror spellcasting, IF THE CONDITION WAS CURED, so spellhoarding just overwrites the sorcerer. Think of it in terms as I apply everything pertaining to sorcerer first, benefits and penalties, then overwrite the spellcasting and replace it with a wizards.   I still have the sorcerer abilities,BECAUSE ITS A CURABLE CONDITION,  so I can trade away any and all abilities regarding it, just spellhoarding blankets over top of them all with a replacement.

Regarding Power attack, thats the kind of advice im looking for.  What feats to take, and where to go with them.  I only considered power attack as a way for a little bonus damage, not as to what I could chain off it with.

Huh? 

I was just giving you that post so that your previous complain-like-a-lunatic at absolutely no one post wouldn't be unwarranted. Nevermind the post order. That's irrelevant, right. 

[hungrygnome]

I was making pre-emptive statements about what not to argue, because anytime Dragonwrought Kobolds come up, almost every thread seems to turn into "are Dragonwroght Kobolds true dragons or not"  I didnt want that getting hashed out AGAIN and derailing the thread.  Or whether the spellhoarding worked with stalwart/battle sorc.

Please keep it to useful advice regarding how to improve upon making a Gish Kobold.

[X-Codes]

I was making pre-emptive statements about what not to argue, because anytime Dragonwrought Kobolds come up, almost every thread seems to turn into "are Dragonwroght Kobolds true dragons or not"  I didnt want that getting hashed out AGAIN and derailing the thread.  Or whether the spellhoarding worked with stalwart/battle sorc.

Please keep it to useful advice regarding how to improve upon making a Gish Kobold.

Like considering the spell Tail Slap* for some of your melee damage?

*Dragon Tail is not the name of a spell.  It is, however, the name of a really bad feat that you should absolutely not take, even in a low-OP campaign.

EDIT: Actually, here, I'll just dig up some D&D Tools links to some good lightsabers.
Decastave: http://dndtools.eu/spells/unapproachable-east--33/decastave--3458/ -- a weapon made of Force.  If you go the Power Attack/Wraithstrike route for damage, then just use this instead of Wraithstrike and a physical weapon.  It's basically got built-in Ghost Touch, bypasses DR, and always goes goes for touch AC instead of real AC.  Also, Power Attack/Strength/Misc mods should absolutely apply because the spell describes your lightsaber as an actual weapon: a Quarterstaff.

Tail Slap: http://dndtools.eu/spells/races-of-the-dragon--83/tail-slap--3097/ -- a tail made of Force.  Doesn't allow for iterative attacks, but for dragonblooded casters, every attack made with it causes the target to have to succeed on a ridiculous Strength check or get knocked some distance.

Scimitar of Sand: http://dndtools.eu/spells/sandstorm--85/scimitar-of-sand--3158/ -- a miniature sandstorm in the shape of a scimitar.  Doesn't apply your Strength mod to damage -- and probably also not Power Attack by logic (making Strength a safe dump stat, even as a melee gish), but other modifiers DO apply.  Base damage is 1d6 (probably 1d4 for you since you're small) + 1 per 2 caster levels (max 1d6+10).  The real selling point is that attacks are touch attacks and every hit forces a save vs. dehydration (a.k.a. fatigue, and IP dictates that even big brutes aren't going to succeed on every save against this weapon).

[Jackinthegreen]

The two ways I know of to get Dex to damage for melee are the Drow/Hit and Run fighter variant found in Drow of the Underdark (which requires the target be flat-footed to the attack) and then the Shadow Blade feat already linked by Raineh.  Note that those don't replace strength to damage, so if you really wanted to keep a decent strength score it would still benefit you.  Keeping it at 10 helps anyway if you expect to be carrying stuff.

It's possible to get strength x2 to damage by using the Exotic Weapon Master PrC's Uncanny Blow trick which lets you add x2 str to damage with a 1-handed exotic weapon held in two hands.

Another way to effectively gain 2x strength to damage is by going TWF and then taking a couple levels in the Bloodclaw Master PrC from Tome of Battle.  Basically it makes your off-hand hits benefit from 1x strength to damage instead of .5x like usual.  It requires using Tiger Claw weapons or daggers though.


Power Attack on its own, even with a 2-handed weapon, isn't all that big a deal.  It might work for your low-op group though to do some extra hitting.  There is a fun trick to do with Power Attack and Arcane Duelist where you can use the AD's Dextrous Attack to lower the damage and raise accuracy on a 1:1 ratio, and then you apply Power Attack on a 2h weapon to lower your accuracy by 1 to gain +2 damage for each step.  Basically you can simply use it to get +10 damage if you have 10 BAB, for example.  If you want to progress spellcasting then I wouldn't recommend using that PrC since it doesn't progress casting at all.

A lot of the character will depend on which spells you choose.  Do you have any ideas on what you'll do there?