Tanuki

[Anomander]

It means what is written, that it can enter the template if it fills all the prerequisites... except prerequisites that involve a special action, such as doing a ritual.
It can thus take from the vampire if it has all the other requirements.
IE: It couldn't take from God unless it has the needed worshipers since having worshipers isn't a special action but something you have.
It could enter Half-Golem if it has a missing body part to be replaced but the process would kinda suck since you have no choice but to get the bad abilities as well if you pick from it, which includes The Danger. The ritual included in The Danger isn't a prerequisite but part of the ability itself, so it would have to undergo the ritual every time it gets the ability.
Becoming a lich, it wouldn't have to create a phylactery, since its a special action, but would still need to have the Craft wondrous item feat and to be able to cast Spells and caster level 11 or higher. If it wants to take the Dark Refuge ability, though, it might as well create it anyway.
It could enter Half-celestial if it is non-evil and has the 8 ranks in knowledge (planes) without having to do the blood-drinking ritual.
The 'Must have an ancestor who was an outsider native to the upper planes' wouldn't work, however, since it involves having something instead of doing something.

[oslecamo]

Gaining full construct immunities or 25% crit immunity is a "bad ability" now? 

[Anomander]

It is as long as it has odds of making you permanently lose 6 Charisma points and perhaps also lose control of your character.
When you roll positively, then it no longer is a disadvantageous ability so you don't get it for free unless you pick it as one of the chosen abilities.
Either way, the ability lists stem from a limb choice. You can't get the ability without the limb, so The Danger is necessary to get anything if you choose them.

[oslecamo]

Damn, if only the baka anuki had some major ability to create artificial limbs to use in the ritual... Oh, wait, they have.

Anyway, it's pretty clear by now that the ability can and will create plenty of fringe cases, since again, the monster classes were never designed for taking in account there's something else that can cherry pick them at will. The abilities are too varied. The prerequisites are too varied. The penalties are too varied.

And this will forever slow down monster class design, because every time a new class comes out, I have to take in mind "This ability is cool, but baka danuki can pick this and combine it with X out of the blue, so it needs  to be nerfed"

You. Cannot. Make. This. Work. Without. Remaking. Everything. Else. From. Scratch. Point. Just scrap it off or make it based on basic polymorph.

EDIT: Or another possibility, you simply make a custom list of abilities for the baka-danuki to pick from. Breath weapon, shell, rays, special movement, etc.

[Anomander]

EDIT: Or another possibility, you simply make a custom list of abilities for the baka-danuki to pick from. Breath weapon, shell, rays, special movement, etc.

I like it.
I'll change the mechanism of the class to be more open and work over more than 3 levels for the purpose of having access to these particular abilities and limit it to a number of abilities instead. Will edit when that's done.

Edit: Done. I think I'm alright with it but perhaps it'd need to be tested for adjustments.

[oslecamo]

Well, out of my head I can't think of anything too abuseable with your new wording, but the rest of the baka danuki doesn't seem to have been changed to take in account the new mechanic, since  Shift Up/Down and Control Shift are still mentioning the previous version of the ability.

Mind you, I'm not saying you should replace them with something new. Just remove those bits, because after all the baka danuki is granting you a new class ability from somebody else at each level, along with your MOMs.

[Anomander]

Just remove those bits, because after all the baka danuki is granting you a new class ability from somebody else at each level

I do not see how I wrote it to make it sound like that. It doesn't get more abilities from something else at each level. It still only gets 1 ability at second level, and then a 2nd with Win Shift Up/Down and then a third with Ctrl Shift Esc.
The only difference now is that there is a list of abilities to pick from, there is a limit to scaling abilities and there is a limit to how many creatures this can work with still picked amongst the creatures it can transform into.
So it doesn't get more monster abilities per level, just a bigger list of abilities to choose from depending on the transformations it chooses to favor.

[oslecamo]

It seems you have a typo on your example then, since you say:


IE: Transforming into a Shambling Mound would allow a level 6 bake-danuki that chose that creature for this ability would be able to take Shambling Body(but wouldn't get the plant traits), Shambling Grab (improved grab), Plant Predator(only the reach extension of its two Slam attacks are directly related to natural weapons), Constrict, Slimy Vines(directly related to its improved grab and constrict abilities) and Fertilizer(directly related to Constrict).

That's six simultaneous abilities from another class gained at baka danuki level 6.

[Anomander]

That is six abilities it can choose 3 abilities from, yes. Not six abilities it can have simultaneously since:

Whenever it transforms into one of the chosen creatures, it can choose 1 class ability available to the monster class of the creature it transformed into provided that it isn't granted at a level higher than its Bake-danuki level.

And then it improves to 2, then 3 abilities.
Since one might take the example out of context to make it mean something else, I'll clarify the text.

[oslecamo]

Right, and with that I have no further critiques for the baka Tanuki. Seems like you still want to do at least one other prc tough, that's still WIP.

[Anomander]

Yep. Got through it mostly. I think I finished it.
I was about to do something quite different, and then I read:

I'm honestly afraid of even opening the next tanuki prc spoiler at this point. Probably hands out divine ranks and divine salient divine abilities...

Then I thought; "Hey, that's actually a pretty good idea."
You can only enter it at minimum level 11 through one of 6 paths. I actually sort of like it and I think a similar Divine Beast pattern could be applied for other creatures as well.

[oslecamo]

Divine Rank is probably the D&D characteristic that has more strings attached by default.

It. Is. Not. Something. You. Just. Give. Away.

At least not without a lot of clauses.

Which your last prc is completely missing.

And then you go out there and add completely custom abilities and I don't even know anymore

So, in the name of sanity, why do you keep insisting on throwing mechanics from other places in your homebrew when you're just going to use them as a basic numeric value? WHY? IN THE NAME OF VECNA WHY DO YOU KEEP DOING IT?

There's zero valid reasons to call it "divine rank". It's confusing, it hurts balance, and it's insulting. It serves no purpose whatsoever besides sparking discussions on whetever it grants a crapload of extra immunities and abilities that it shouldn't have, and you could've easily prevented that simply by giving it another name.

[Anomander]

I don't see the difference.
Using Divine Rank as little more than a basic numeric value for scaling purposes is pretty much what you did with your god template. It doesn't do by default what it normally does and has been reduced to a number that merely determines progress in the scaling of some abilities. You could have called it yourself something else than Divine Rank and it would have done the same thing. I only called it Divine Rank to make it clearer that it can stack with the god's Divine Ranks for the purpose of the abilities that scale out of it. That's why. If you prefer that I make it a bit less obvious by calling it something else, like "Divine Prank" (I'd love to), and just say that it stacks with the god's divine ranks to determine the power of the abilities that scales out of it, no problem.

I don't see a clause that addresses the discussion-sparking issues that you refer to of calling the thing Divine Rank in the god template class. I can rename the thing but if this is a concern of yours you might want to address the issue in the god template thread.

[Raineh Daze]

The fact that the Divine Rank-tied abilities are rewritten in the class itself helps.

[Anomander]

An assumption or another. Still an assumption.
Rewrote it as Divine Prank either way. More amusing.

[oslecamo]

Using Divine Rank as little more than a basic numeric value for scaling purposes is pretty much what you did with your god template. It doesn't do by default what it normally does and has been reduced to a number that merely determines progress in the scaling of some abilities. You could have called it yourself something else than Divine Rank and it would have done the same thing. I only called it Divine Rank to make it clearer that it can stack with the god's Divine Ranks for the purpose of the abilities that scale out of it. That's why. If you prefer that I make it a bit less obvious by calling it something else, like "Divine Prank" (I'd love to), and just say that it stacks with the god's divine ranks to determine the power of the abilities that scales out of it, no problem.

Yes problem. Because as you yourself point out, that prc is not a god, but a primal force of nature. Which in D&D are quite different things.

Gods in D&D get their power from worshippers. That's what makes them different from titans/abominations/elementals/demons/assorted other highly powerful monsters. Those last don't need worshippers. But gods that have no worshippers are better known as "dead inanimate corpses that are used to build cities in the astral plane".

That's why I made the god class here. To represent the powerful creature that gets power from worshippers. And now you come and just go "hey, tanukis now are better gods than gods themselves, they get  pseudo-divine ranks without need of worshipers, I just made gods obsolete, really amusing isn't it?"

So no, if this was supposed to be your idea of funny, I'm not laughing.

[Anomander]

Except their are not divine ranks, and as you said, they are now only a basic numeric value.

Gods in D&D get their power from whoreshippers.

That is very wrong. Many divine beings do not need any. Some are born into it, have it transferred by deicide, just happen to read the right book or, as one of the examples of possible means to earn divinity given by the dnd source material states, drank three times from a mystic well and succeeded some saving throws.
Gods getting their power out of worship alone is an houserule, at best.

[ketaro]

None of those reasons are still nearly so easy as "Take levels in this class, do nothing, become god, ???, profit."
All those ways of becoming a god are pretty plot relevant after all. What class you take has nothing to do with any of that.

[Anomander]

Yes, but the divinity of the kaminuki is also designed to be handicapped as a result of not being powered by faith.
You don't progress as fast, the equivalent to the Divine Characteristics are mostly inferior and not as numerous, the divine salient ability equivalents aren't as numerous either and many of them are gimped by being dependent on the Dprank.
Dprank can be raised to normal amounts but you have less abilities as a result. It doesn't have as many SDA options and some have been tweaked since there is a lack of domains and godly realm. To get some maneuver progression on top of all that it would have to hack away further into its abilities. It also doesn't have easy access to the cheapest abilities available.

If being HD 11 with a specific kind of 10 level class build is too easy, I could put in some other special requirement like receiving the blessings of nature by accomplishing an heroic eco-friendly deed, imbuing it with the divine spark (sorta inspired by the animal gods in Princess Mononoke and the animal spirits of the Shinto pantheon).
It could also have the opportunity to bypass that and just get one level in god to kickstart its divine potential instead of having Nature do it. It'd have worshipers in nature, or tanuki worshipers.

Currently being a god is pretty much getting levels in the god template and saying in your backstory that you got a lot of worshipers for X reason. Then our PR agents take care of the rest to promote our religion behind the scenes along with us getting attention to ourselves by doing more or less what we'd do anyway if we weren't a god.

[oslecamo]

Except their are not divine ranks, and as you said, they are now only a basic numeric value.

Changing the name is meaningless if you then go out of your way to make it  stack with Divine ranks for all intents and purposes anyway.

Gods in D&D get their power from whoreshippers.

That is very wrong. Many divine beings do not need any. Some are born into it, have it transferred by deicide, just happen to read the right book or, as one of the examples of possible means to earn divinity given by the dnd source material states, drank three times from a mystic well and succeeded some saving throws.
Gods getting their power out of worship alone is an houserule, at best.

You mean besides being mentioned in the Deities and Demigods?

Or that the astral plane is literally littered with corpses of forgotten gods? Not slain in battle, nor by plot rituals, but simply dead because people forgot about them?

Yes, but the divinity of the kaminuki is also designed to be handicapped as a result of not being powered by faith.
You don't progress as fast, the equivalent to the Divine Characteristics are mostly inferior and not as numerous, the divine salient ability equivalents aren't as numerous either and many of them are gimped by being dependent on the Dprank.
Dprank can be raised to normal amounts but you have less abilities as a result. It doesn't have as many SDA options and some have been tweaked since there is a lack of domains and godly realm. To get some maneuver progression on top of all that it would have to hack away further into its abilities. It also doesn't have easy access to the cheapest abilities available.

All irrelevant when the tanuki dog can use and abuse psychic reformation at leisure. Because "gods" now suddenly means guys that stand for nothing and care about nothing it seems.

The first step to attempting to salvage this would be simply removing any and all stacking with actual divine ranks and god abilities. If somebody wants to make an actual tanuki god, then they can very well take god levels. That's the whole reason it was created, and the last thing this project needs is a bazillion "god" variants with scaling power creep.

If you want to make some wannabe dog with delusions of grandeur, whatever, but you don't get to rewrite D&D cosmology at your leisure while doing so.