Author Topic: Bards in high-level games  (Read 10132 times)

Offline Sleepyphoenixx

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Bards in high-level games
« on: April 08, 2014, 03:35:01 PM »
It's widely accepted that any high level character should get Mind Blank in one form or another.
Since all bardic music is mind-affecting that pretty much means your bard becomes a crippled sorcerer unless your entire party neglects a crucial defense.

What i'm looking for is duplicating the effects of Mind Blank as much as possible while still allowing bardic music to be effective.
What i have so far:
Ring of Mind Shielding: protects from Detect Thoughts, Discern Lies and alignment detection - cheap enough for pretty much everyone to get but pretty limited

Exalted armor enhancement or persisted Protection from X: protects from mind control/possession - Exalted is a +3 enhancement and only works for good characters, PfX can be dispelled/run out and also costs significant daily resources even with DMM or Incantatrix.

Nondetection: protects from divinations - has a material component (though it's not too much of a problem at high level), offers a CL check so it's not absolute

What i'm looking for:
Protection from Divination, preferably absolute (no CL checks or saves), in item form or long duration
Protection from as many negative mind-affecting effects as possible, with the same conditions, while still allowing bardic music effects.

Offline Eviltedzies

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Re: Bards in high-level games
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2014, 03:57:15 PM »
Disobediance [LoM] effectively prevents mind controlling effects, charms, and compulsions while still allowing mind effecting spells and abilities to work. It lasts for 1 hour/level and at higher level is quite easy to boost up to the 24 hour mark.

Nondetection is going to be your best catch all low level anti-divination effect. Despite the CL check there is no low level spell that comes close to how broad of a category of divination effects Nondetection works against.

Your main issue is that in order to allow Mind-Effecting bardic music abilities to work on your party you almost have to allow potentially negative ones to work as well.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Bards in high-level games
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2014, 04:01:01 PM »
Disobediance [LoM] effectively prevents mind controlling effects, charms, and compulsions while still allowing mind effecting spells and abilities to work. It lasts for 1 hour/level and at higher level is quite easy to boost up to the 24 hour mark.
Protection from X/Magic Circle basically does the same thing, plus protects from possession and summoned creatures. It's ridiculous how powerful Protection from X is for a 1st level spell...

Another option is for everyone to be undead, and the bard take the Requiem feat, but I doubt that's what you're looking for. :D
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Offline Sleepyphoenixx

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Re: Bards in high-level games
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2014, 04:47:29 PM »
Well, there is the Ring of Mental Fortitude (DMG2) which is basically half of Mind Blank, just the wrong half.  :(
I don't know if there's a similar item for the other half printed somewhere.

Also, the Slayers Cerebral Blind and Cerebral Immunity duplicate Mind Blank but let effects through if you want them to. Slayer 7/9 is a little on the high side for a dip though :P

Requiem/Green Ear would work for the mind-affecting part but it's unlikely you'll get the whole party to play undead/plant characters.

I'm honestly not too worried about the divination aspect. Ring of Mind Shieldings and Nondetection are good enough for everyday use. For planning sessions and things that have to remain absolutely secret there's always Mage's Private Sanctum.
The mind-affecting stuff is another matter. PfX takes care of a few of the biggest worries but there's still plenty of stuff around that i'd rather be immune to if possible.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Bards in high-level games
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2014, 05:02:44 PM »
Items that provide Protection from Evil (example, least legacy) will freely negate the more crippling effects under the Mind-Affecting umbrella while letting you benefit from Moral bonuses such as Inspire Courage. But if you must have immunity to Mind-Affecting, just use Empyreal Ecstasy out of the BoED.

It's Bard 6th, grants immunity to Mind-Affecting but does not negate effects already in place. So you IC off a Swift Action via Song of the White Raven then cast the Spell. Since it's 6th level, it can even be built into a Contingency as well whilst attempting to maintain any Moral Bonuses you already have in place against unexpected attackers.

Offline X-Codes

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Re: Bards in high-level games
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2014, 12:11:56 AM »
Magic Circle is really good.  However, Disobedience protects against Suggestion.

Disobedience is also on the Bard spell list, whereas Magic Circle is not.  That said, as a 3rd-level spell, it's in direct competition with a lot of great Bard spells.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 12:18:17 AM by X-Codes »

Offline Ithamar

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Re: Bards in high-level games
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2014, 12:03:37 PM »
Protection from X and Magic Circle vs. X are on the Divine Bard spell list.  Just sayin'.  :love

Offline X-Codes

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Re: Bards in high-level games
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2014, 12:49:49 PM »
Divine Bard also splits your casting ability, making what is basically your one dump stat not a dump stat.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Bards in high-level games
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2014, 12:58:32 PM »
Magic Circle is really good.  However, Disobedience protects against Suggestion.

Disobedience is also on the Bard spell list, whereas Magic Circle is not.  That said, as a 3rd-level spell, it's in direct competition with a lot of great Bard spells.
It looks like Disobedience has exactly the same wording as Protection from Evil, with respect to protection from mind control. Was it reprinted with a different wording somewhere?

Quote from: Disobedience
blocks any attempt to exercise mental control over the subject creature, including charm and compulsion effects that grant ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person or a vampire's dominate ability.
The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting a subject affected by disobedience, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of this spell.
Quote from: protection from evil
blocks any attempt to <snip> exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person). The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of the protection from evil effect.

Disobedience lasts longer, and allows you to "trick" the guy trying to control you. It could be Chained to multiple targets, if you have that capacity.

Protection from Evil also protects against possession and summoned creatures. With the Magic Circle version, you can also protect multiple creatures with a single casting, but they'd need to stay within range. Both spells also provide +2 to AC and saves vs. evil creatures/attacks (all of the other spell effects work regardless of the attacker's alignment).

What list it is on probably doesn't matter much, as presumably this bard is in a party with other casters (almost all of which can cast PfE/Magic Circle).
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 01:00:41 PM by phaedrusxy »
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Offline Sleepyphoenixx

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Re: Bards in high-level games
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2014, 01:51:31 PM »
I'm aware or PfE. Extended and with a rod of lesser Chain spell it takes care of possession and dominate for the whole party, with a few 2nd level Pearls of Power just in case. It requires a bit of forethought but we've done alright with it so far, and the summon protection is pretty handy.
A cheap and effective solution imo since the whole party can share the cost to get it up asap. Being dominated sucks.  :D

The problem with it is that it doesn't protect from Illusion(Pattern) and (Phantasm) spells, Compulsions that don't grant control like Irresistible Dance or Touch of Idiocy, other Enchantment spells like Mindrape, a whole host of psionic effects and fear effects. And our DM will take advantage of any vulnerability, so that's quite a bit.
So far we've been using the Mindarmor enhancement from MIC and Greater Armor Crystals of Mind Cloaking (and save buffs in general). We're still alive, but it just isn't the same as Immunity. :tongue

The only one of those that i have a way to adress is fear. Even then it gets complicated fast if you have to get a seperate protection item/spell for every little thing, so i was hoping for a simpler solution.

We're currently level 11-12 and have a party of bard/crusader/heartfire fanner, wizard/swiftblade gish, summoner druid and an artificer/cannith wand adept so spell & item access shouldn't be a problem.  :D
It's also not quite an immediate problem, just something that came up after the last session because we're getting near the point where Mind Blank is a thing.

Offline X-Codes

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Re: Bards in high-level games
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2014, 05:46:49 PM »
Magic Circle is really good.  However, Disobedience protects against Suggestion.

Disobedience is also on the Bard spell list, whereas Magic Circle is not.  That said, as a 3rd-level spell, it's in direct competition with a lot of great Bard spells.
It looks like Disobedience has exactly the same wording as Protection from Evil, with respect to protection from mind control. Was it reprinted with a different wording somewhere?
It does, doesn't it?  That is bizarre, and makes me question why PfE would not block Suggestion... maybe that's an old rule?

In any case, if you have very high Will saves, I wouldn't be too concerned.  Immunities are more important for things that can kill you without a saving throw.  Something that provides a fantastic boost to saves in general is the Benediction spell, and the Artificier is more than capable of making a Wand of that.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 05:54:11 PM by X-Codes »

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Bards in high-level games
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2014, 11:05:29 AM »
I was going to say just what X-Codes did.  If you're "hardened" against something -- good saves, condition removal, panic buttons, etc. -- then I think immunity is going overboard.  Immunity is only important against things that you can't save or recover against.  With things like Panacea, Revivify, and so on in place, that list is actually awfully short.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Bards in high-level games
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2014, 11:25:19 AM »
I was going to say just what X-Codes did.  If you're "hardened" against something -- good saves, condition removal, panic buttons, etc. -- then I think immunity is going overboard.  Immunity is only important against things that you can't save or recover against.  With things like Panacea, Revivify, and so on in place, that list is actually awfully short.
Yeah... it basically boils down to 1) eaten by a barghest (and rolled poorly) or 2) all of your gear was eaten by a rust monster/sundered/stolen. :P
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Offline Azoriel

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Re: Bards in high-level games
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2014, 01:00:47 PM »
Rather than having the rest of the party work around the bard's abilities, why not have the bard work his abilities around the party?

http://dndtools.eu/feats/dragon-magic--62/dragonfire-inspiration--733/
Quote
Dragonfire Inspiration
( Dragon Magic, p. 17)

[Draconic]

You can channel the power of your draconic ancestry into the attacks of your allies.
Prerequisite

CHA 11, bardic music, dragonblood subtype,
Benefit

When you use your bardic music to inspire courage, you can choose to imbue your allies with dragonfire. This choice is made when first activating the ability, and the choice applies to all allies affected.

Each ally so inspired loses the standard morale bonus on weapon attack rolls and damage rolls. Instead, he deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage with his weapons for every point of morale bonus that your inspire courage ability would normally add to the attack roll. For example, an 8th-level bard using this ability would add 2d6 points of fire damage to his allies' attacks.
Special

If you have the Draconic Heritage feat or if you are a half-dragon, the extra damage is of the energy type (acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic) that corresponds to your heritage or your draconic parent instead. It your feat or your parent is not associated with one of these energy types, this feat has no effect for you.
-Azoriel

Offline Sleepyphoenixx

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Re: Bards in high-level games
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2014, 03:22:37 PM »
There's no reason you can't do both, especially with Song of the White Raven.

Offline X-Codes

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Re: Bards in high-level games
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2014, 03:15:03 PM »
There's no reason you can't do both, especially with Song of the White Raven.
If you're immune to Mind-Affecting, you're still immune to Dragonfire Inspiration because the "normal" bonus on attack rolls is 0.

Offline Sleepyphoenixx

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Re: Bards in high-level games
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2014, 04:33:04 PM »
Yes... which is why i'm looking for options to survive high level play without immunity to mind-affecting.   :tongue
My party also enjoys my Inspire Greatness and the Heartfire Fanners free feat and free metamagic songs. Those are mind-affecting too.

Also, items with permanent Mind Blank are expensive. If there are ways to get the necessary protection cheaper i'll certainly not throw my gold away.  :D

Offline X-Codes

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Re: Bards in high-level games
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2014, 04:22:54 AM »
Mind Blank items aren't really a thing, IMO.  It has day-long duration for those who can cast it, and it's not hard to get onto most spell lists if you don't have it by default (Clerics have it in one of their domains, so any Divine casting class gets it via a Contemplative dip).

Then again, you might have to resort to such methods if you're, I don't know... a Barbarian or something... plebian... :p

Offline Azoriel

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Re: Bards in high-level games
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2014, 01:22:00 PM »
If you're immune to Mind-Affecting, you're still immune to Dragonfire Inspiration because the "normal" bonus on attack rolls is 0.

I would disagree.  How is being immune to mind-affecting a "normal" state?  If we were to look at the description of the ability:

Quote
Each ally so inspired loses the standard morale bonus on weapon attack rolls and damage rolls.

The "standard morale bonus", without any other qualifiers.  Not "the standard morale bonus the ally would receive", but rather simply "the standard bonus", meaning this "normal bonus" is determined before it ever reaches your allies.  Furthermore:

Quote
Instead, he deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage with his weapons for every point of morale bonus that your inspire courage ability would normally add to the attack roll. For example, an 8th-level bard using this ability would add 2d6 points of fire damage to his allies' attacks.

The first sentence is arguably ambiguous, but the second is most definitely not - the amount of the "normal bonus" is defined by the bard's own ability, independent of the listener's ability to receive.

As for stacking DFI with IC:

Quote
When you use your bardic music to inspire courage, you can choose to imbue your allies with dragonfire. This choice is made when first activating the ability, and the choice applies to all allies affected.

This would suggest the two effects are considered the same thing so therefore couldn't be run concurrently, at least to me, but your own millage may vary.
-Azoriel

Offline Mortadelas

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Re: Bards in high-level games
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2014, 04:48:13 PM »
Bard songs are mind affecting. There is no case to be made, if you are immune to mind affecting you are immune to them unless undead+requiem etc.

The only way to get arround it from a "lawyer" point of view is that mind=int+wiz+cha in d&d terms, so immunity to mind affecting would suggest immunity to all bonuses/penalties/drains etc. However Erl the gaunt (libris mortis 154) is wearing a headband of Intelect. That would suggest that immunity to mind affecting is intended as immunity to "Unwanted" mind affecting. Before any of you claims the said bonus to be "enchantment" let me say that it IS and enchantmend bonus that AFFECTS the MIND.

But that is EXTREME cheese.

You are a bard, convince your party that morale bonuses are handy 24/7 while immunity to mind affecting is for the weak minds.

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