Author Topic: Fun Finds v6.0  (Read 291989 times)

Offline Amechra

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Re: Fun Finds v6.0
« Reply #720 on: April 26, 2015, 12:21:59 AM »
No, he's thinking of Planar Turning.

Turn Anathema on steroids, basically.
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Fun Finds v6.0
« Reply #721 on: April 26, 2015, 04:01:11 PM »
+1 ... wow, and I only cared about psi and t.o. back then.
So a decently c.o.-ed Cleric 11 toasts the Abyss.

Figures carnivore would have spotted this.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2015, 04:02:44 PM by awaken_D_M_golem »
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Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Fun Finds v6.0
« Reply #722 on: April 26, 2015, 04:50:54 PM »
No, he's thinking of Planar Turning.

Turn Anathema on steroids, basically.

I was referring to the domain power mentioned.  I don't know of a domain power anywhere that allows for all outsiders to be turned.  The usual elemental types along with lycanthropes and a 1/day Deathless are what I'm seeing.  Planar Domains from SpC don't modify turning at all.

Turn Anathema is the closest thing to turning outsiders besides the Planar Turning feat.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Fun Finds v6.0
« Reply #723 on: April 26, 2015, 07:16:07 PM »
Well if you want a Commanded level of control over Outsiders there is the 2,000xp/5,000gp costing option of Mantle of the Fiery Spirit with the Water Domain. :p

Skip the XP costs using Denomerkeeper, Ice Assassin, or w/e you can think of.

Offline Chemus

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Re: Fun Finds v6.0
« Reply #724 on: April 27, 2015, 05:43:38 PM »
Nosomatic Chirurgeon (Dragonmarked) has the ability to spontaneously convert a spell, slot, or daily use of an SLA into any inflict spell of equal or lower spell level, but it's not negative energy, so doesn't heal undead. It states that this is cast like a cleric converts spells into cure/inflict spells done spontaneously, using the word cast. So, every inflict spell counts as a spell you can cast. Thus if you use SLA's (Dragonfire Adept (DrM), Warlock (CArc)) you can spontaneously cast arcane spells of particular levels.

None of this is new, but I noticed that Arcane Thesis (PHBII) merely requires that you choose a spell that you can cast, so you can use it on Inflict X wounds. Then Cooperative Spell (CArc) and Invisible Spell (City) get you some heightens or, say Fell Drain for 'free'. Add Rapid Spell (CDiv) and you've got a standard action drain at will.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 08:42:52 PM by Chemus »
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Fun Finds v6.0
« Reply #725 on: April 27, 2015, 08:28:27 PM »
It states that this is cast like a cleric converts spells into cure/inflict spells, using the word cast. So, every inflict spell counts as a spell you can cast.
I didn't know it was errata'ed because the book doesn't say that.

But if it does now, Nosomatic Chirurgeon also advances and grants spellcasting, Adapt (thus divine) and per Cleric, that ability must be routed through said Spellcasting limiting the actual level of Inflict you can cast making it a huge nerf to the original text.

Offline Chemus

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Re: Fun Finds v6.0
« Reply #726 on: April 27, 2015, 08:38:10 PM »
Whoops, I thought it said that, I'll just strike that part out. Fortunately, that has no bearing on arcane casters and SLA users being able to apply Arcane thesis to one or more of the Inflict spells. Here's the actual text:
Quote from: Pestilential Touch (Su):
A chirurgeon develops the supernatural ability to channel spell energy into debilitating harm. This ability allows you to spontaneously "lose" a single usage of any spell or spell-like ability to cast any inflict spell of the same spell level or lower. (An inflict spell is any spell with "inflict" in its name, such as inflict light wounds).

Unlike with a normal casting of an inflict spell, the damage dealt by this ability is not negative energy, and so cannot be used to heal undead.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Fun Finds v6.0
« Reply #727 on: April 28, 2015, 12:32:32 AM »
Yeah ok so nothing's changed.

But the combo doesn't work. Short and sweet
A. Arcane Thesis requires Arcane Spellcasting, Warlocks don't cast Spells.
B. Spellcasting Feats are instanced, sic Sorcerer/Favored Soul picks Extra Spell must choose which List to pick from and which Class can cast it. See also the FAQ entry on DFA & Metabreath Feats for a reminder that very much uses the word "assumes" for a reason. Arcane Thesis wants a Spell [requirement meeting class] can cast, so you'd also have to dip Recaster or something.
C. A & B are not the reason it fails, just what it takes to make it happen as an fyi.
D. Supernatural Abilities can cast Spells and this isn't new news, but it isn't 'cast' that you focus on.

Since it's an Su ability that never references any Spellcasting trait so the general rules still hold priority. By default the CL and Save DC is calculated using your HD and not a made up 'effective adapt level' or whatever. Using it does not provoke an AoO, you do not need to make a Concentration Check, it does not check SR, it cannot normally be Counterspelled or Dispelled, and heck it's not even Arcane or Divine based and Feeblemind can't stop you form using it. It's a limited version of the Denomerkeeper (I think there is a w in there somewhere).

But, it also cannot be affected by Metamagic Feats so Co-Op and Invisibility are out. Empower Supernatural Ability would work but at 1/day that kind of sucks. I'm not a 100% on if general CL boosts are disallowed through, I think they are but never looked into the topic. But since you can specifically Counter/Dispel an Su-produced Spell if even the Spell's Subtypes would allow it so, it's fully reasonable that anything that can piggyback onto an Inflict effect would happen as well; like Profane Boost maximizes any Inflict Spell cast on the target.

Edit - Hmm, instead of Warlock think Dread Necromancer.
Using Innate Spell to convert any one of the DN's Spells to an SLA, a single level dip into Nosomatic Chirurgeon gives you a your very own At-Will go to like a Warlock's ED or DFA's breath. And you have the Turn Undead so support Profane Boost. So maybe the best usage isn't Warlock, but Dread Necromancer who could use a better touch attack.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 12:40:36 AM by SorO_Lost »

Offline Chemus

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Re: Fun Finds v6.0
« Reply #728 on: April 28, 2015, 02:16:21 AM »
Huh, that's interesting. It's long been contended (on the WotC boards, BG, here, perhaps others that I don't frequent) that the Nos Chirurgeon ability is Arcane Spellcasting, when powered by arcane spells/SLA's.

The Supernatural ability in PT is to convert the spell energy. 'This ability allows you to spontaneously "lose" a single [spell/SLA] to cast...' It's still being cast, and spontaneously.

The Pestilential Touch text is a cut and paste of the cleric ability, which I'll quote:
Quote from: Spontaneous Casting, (SRD):
A good cleric (or a neutral cleric of a good deity) can channel stored spell energy into healing spells that the cleric did not prepare ahead of time. The cleric can “lose” any prepared spell that is not a domain spell in order to cast any cure spell of the same spell level or lower (a cure spell is any spell with “cure” in its name)...

I contend that you're spontaneously casting a spell, as that's what it says you're doing in the rules text of the PT ability. It even says which ways it's not like a normal casting of an inflict spell. As do other Su spell abilities.

Quick examples for comparison:
Quote from: Doppelganger (SRD);
Detect Thoughts (Su): A doppelganger can continuously use detect thoughts as the spell (caster level 18th; Will DC 13 negates). It can suppress or resume this ability as a free action. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Quote from: Dweomerkeeper (CDiv):
Supernatural Spell (Su): ...Once per day as a standard action, she can use any one spell with a casting time of up to 1 standard action as a supernatural ability. The spell chosen must be one that is currently available to the dweomerkeeper (that is, one that she has prepared or that she knows and has a spell slot of the appropriate level available to cast), but she can decide at the moment of casting to use this ability. The spell functions as it normally would and is expended normally, but the dweomerkeeper does not require any components, does not provoke attacks of opportunity, and ignores the target's spell resistance, just as if she were using a supernatural ability instead of a spell...

Those abilities specify how they differ from casting a spell.

The Doppelganger is using detect thoughts as the spell, not casting the spell at all, suppressing or resuming as a free action, with the listed save DC.

The Dweomerkeeper is choosing one her spells and using it as an Su ability, not casting it at all, but with only Components, SR and AoO's ignored (other bits like save DC's and spell level, School and Sub-school are the same, as 'the spell functions as it normally would and is expended normally, but...'). These are showing how they're different from casting said spells. The doppelganger is not using a spell at all, and the Dweomerkeeper is using a spell as a Su ability, specifically, but with differences.

Pestilential touch uses shorthand to denote the action, saving throw, components, interruptability/counterspellability and AoO status; as a spontaneously cast Inflict spell.

QED
« Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 02:18:39 AM by Chemus »
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Fun Finds v6.0
« Reply #729 on: April 28, 2015, 02:14:58 PM »
Huh, that's interesting. It's long been contended (on the WotC boards, BG, here, perhaps others that I don't frequent) that the Nos Chirurgeon ability is Arcane Spellcasting, when powered by arcane spells/SLA's.
I actually like that one better than my midnight posting after doing a bit more research. Like I said before the Cleric's untyped Class Feature does note things - "that the cleric did not prepare ahead of time." - but the Chirurgeon does not so it's rerouted into the inherited rules.

Except, the Cleric is not the best example and as always having rules is better than not. The Duskblade is much much more applicable. It's Supernatural Arcane Channeling is confirmed by the FAQ to work with any Spellcasting and says "you can use a standard action to cast any touch spell you know". So same channel any in for X effect out.

Of course, you know you can't use Metamagic Feats with SLAs right?



And speaking of fun finds.
Quote from: DMGII pg172
The undead mster is a classic villain—perhaps the leader of an undead nation or the scion of a sinister cult. She can command undead both as a cleric and as a sorcerer (by using the command undead spell), and she can cast animate dead as both a cleric and sorcerer. Thus, the total number of undead minions she can command is staggering. She often uses her portable hole to transport minions during the day or to smuggle them through enemy territory.
Rule Confirmation that Animate Dead's HD cap is also instanced out to how you're casting the Spell.

I suppose it empowers the craptastic T___ _________r a bit since they have double the pool to pull from, but we're optimizers and do not speak it's name. Soo... Mystic Theurge.

Offline Chemus

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Re: Fun Finds v6.0
« Reply #730 on: April 28, 2015, 06:38:32 PM »
...Like I said before the Cleric's untyped Class Feature does note things - "that the cleric did not prepare ahead of time." - but the Chirurgeon does not so it's rerouted into the inherited rules.

Except, the Cleric is not the best example and as always having rules is better than not. The Duskblade is much much more applicable. It's Supernatural Arcane Channeling is confirmed by the FAQ to work with any Spellcasting and says "you can use a standard action to cast any touch spell you know". So same channel any in for X effect out.

Actually, that's descriptive text, showing what the ability does in general. The PT ability rules mirror the cleric's ability exactly, so cleric is the best example. It has understood and commonly used rules. Again, the ability has specific and understood rules; spontaneous casting of any inflict spell of the same or lower level, powered by 'losing' any usage of a spell or SLA.

Quote from: SorO
Of course, you know you can't use Metamagic Feats with SLAs right?
Yup. Has no bearing here, the inflict spells being cast are ... spells ... being cast.

As for the find, don't the spells reference CL for max controllable?
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Fun Finds v6.0
« Reply #731 on: April 29, 2015, 06:19:35 PM »
Yeah, CLx4.
But that's CL in Sorcerer, you still have a CLx4 in Cleric to use. :)

Unlike SUs, SLA's text does say they are 'cast' so you've lost your rebuttal.
And you cannot consistency say the type of what's used matters to rebuke the ability flipping them to SU, then instantly say the ability flips them so the type that's used doesn't matter because it's a Spell. That's illogical.

Offline Chemus

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Re: Fun Finds v6.0
« Reply #732 on: April 29, 2015, 08:36:45 PM »
Yeah, CLx4.
But that's CL in Sorcerer, you still have a CLx4 in Cleric to use. :)
You're right, and I wasn't disagreeing. CL's are separate, so each CL you can get nets you a pool of undead equal to 4xCL. [edit] For classes that have an undead creation spell referencing undead control by CL on their list.[/edit]

Quote
Unlike SUs, SLA's text does say they are 'cast' so you've lost your rebuttal.
And you cannot consistency say the type of what's used matters to rebuke the ability flipping them to SU, then instantly say the ability flips them so the type that's used doesn't matter because it's a Spell. That's illogical.

The Spell or SLA being used to power the spell being cast is what makes the ability Arcane, not what makes the casting of the spell 'not Supernatural'. That's the common contention of which I wrote; that the Pestilential ability gives Spellcasting, and if the spell or SLA lost to power it is Arcane (which most SLAs are, and all DfA/Wlck invocations are), then so is the spellcasting, if Divine, same thing.

What makes the casting of the spell is that the ability says that's what you're doing; '...you [pay] to cast any inflict spell of the same level or lower...'

Thus no inconsistency.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 08:39:27 PM by Chemus »
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Offline snakeman830

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Re: Fun Finds v6.0
« Reply #733 on: May 01, 2015, 11:41:57 PM »
Speaking of undead related stuff, the Master of Undeath feat in Complete Mage will actually let you control one undead you create via (Greater ) Create Undead (or any other Necromancy spell) for 1 day/caster level.  Can only have one Undead controlled this way, though.
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Offline Arz

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Re: Fun Finds v6.0
« Reply #734 on: May 11, 2015, 07:05:09 PM »
Hierophant Druid w/ Urban Comapnion ACF gives the entire party familiars. Or Shape Soulmeld (Shadow Mantle) qualifies for Shadow Familiar. So totemists can share soulmelds.

Offline Chemus

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Re: Fun Finds v6.0
« Reply #735 on: May 11, 2015, 07:36:27 PM »
Though the Urban companion is not specified as not allowed for sharing, if you lose the ability to call one, don't you lose the companion you have?

You'll have to unpack your trick trunk a bit more on the shadow mantle>shadow familiar>share soulmelds bit; shadow familiar in ToM requires a shadowcaster level... 'less yer talkin' 'bout somethin' else.
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Offline snakeman830

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Re: Fun Finds v6.0
« Reply #736 on: May 12, 2015, 12:36:15 AM »
It appears as though the Hideous Blow invocation for Warlocks does have one feature that is overlooked: it doesn't appear to lose its ability to deal critical damage.

However, this also means that it would probably inherit the crit stats from whatever weapon was used to deliver the attack.  Potentially some truly massive hits here.
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Offline Chemus

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Re: Fun Finds v6.0
« Reply #737 on: May 23, 2015, 05:23:37 PM »
Very minor find: The tunnel riding feat (RoS), which requires the tunnel fighting feat (RoS, Dsc), garners no benefit over just having the mount take tunnel fighting too; which only requires that it have BAB +1.

Then you both can move at 1/2 speed, but take no other penalties when squeezing through spaces as small as half the mount's space.
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Offline deadkitten

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Re: Fun Finds v6.0
« Reply #738 on: May 29, 2015, 05:45:05 AM »
Quote
Warbringer's Rod
A boon to warriors everywhere, a warbringer's rod allows soldiers and fighters to mystically augment their abilities without waiting for assistance from an allied spellcaster.

Description: A warbringer's rod is a heavy bar of iron with a steel head at the top. The head is flanged, allowing it to function as a mace.
When one of the rod's magical abilities is activated, the handle grows warm, and the wielder hears a battle cry reverberating in his head.

Activation: The normal enhancement bonus of a warbringer's rod and the feat-related benefit require no activation to function.
The spell effects contained within a warbringer's rod require a command word to activate; this takes a standard action. The specific words vary from rod to rod, but include phrases such as "Grant me strength!" and "Let blood flow!"
Once it is activated, a warbringer's rod cannot be activated again until an arcane spell of 3rd level or higher has been placed into it (much as the way a ring of spell storing functions, though the precise spell doesn't matter).

Effect: A warbringer's rod functions as a +1 heavy mace. If the wielder has any feats that apply only to a specific weapon (such as Weapon Focus), he can apply the feats' benefit to this weapon as well.
In addition, when it is activated, the rod casts both bear's endurance and bull's strength on the wielder simultaneously. These spells remain active as long as the wielder holds the rod (up to the normal duration of each spell).

Aura/Caster Level: Faint transmutation. CL 5th.
Construction: Craft Rod, Craft Magic Arms and Armor,
Weapon Focus (any), bear's endurance, bull's strength, greater magic weapon, 4,312 gp, 320 XP, 8 days.
Weight: 8 lb.
Price: 8,312 gp.

Complete Mage is so Hipster, it had Aptitude weapons before Aptitude even knew what it was.   :P

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Fun Finds v6.0
« Reply #739 on: May 30, 2015, 06:51:31 AM »
Those were a way to bypass the aptitude ban in the gladiator games I had played in awhile back
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