3.5 only: Help me build an Optimal, non-evil Duskblade, from L6 up.

[Rebel7284]

Bard 7/Duskblade 3/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion 5/x3

OR Bard 1/Duskblade 9/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion 5/x3

Seconds build probably requires the Able Learner feat.  Either build can probably benefit by taking Abjurant Champion earlier.

[phaedrusxy]

If your DM doesn't budge on casting with a 2-handed weapon, you might consider this feat.

Yeah, but i gotta start to wonder if the spiked chain is worth two of my eight feats to simply use it.

I'd suggest the Spinning Sword from Secrets of Sarlona as a replacement. It's a 1-handed reach weapon that also threatens at 5'. As a 1-handed weapon, you can grip it with 2 hands for 2xPA and 1.5xStr to damage as needed.

[Gazzien]

If your DM doesn't budge on casting with a 2-handed weapon, you might consider this feat.

Yeah, but i gotta start to wonder if the spiked chain is worth two of my eight feats to simply use it.

I'd suggest the Spinning Sword from Secrets of Sarlona as a replacement. It's a 1-handed reach weapon that also threatens at 5'. As a 1-handed weapon, you can grip it with 2 hands for 2xPA and 1.5xStr to damage as needed.

A spinning sword can't be wielded in two hands to apply 1-1/2 times a character's Strength bonus on damage rolls.

[phaedrusxy]

If your DM doesn't budge on casting with a 2-handed weapon, you might consider this feat.

Yeah, but i gotta start to wonder if the spiked chain is worth two of my eight feats to simply use it.

I'd suggest the Spinning Sword from Secrets of Sarlona as a replacement. It's a 1-handed reach weapon that also threatens at 5'. As a 1-handed weapon, you can grip it with 2 hands for 2xPA and 1.5xStr to damage as needed.

A spinning sword can't be wielded in two hands to apply 1-1/2 times a character's Strength bonus on damage rolls.

Whoops. Does that mean you can't use it in 2 hands at all (and hence no 2xPA)? Or just you don't get the 1.5xStr bonus (which IIRC is how the rapier works)?

[Gazzien]

If your DM doesn't budge on casting with a 2-handed weapon, you might consider this feat.

Yeah, but i gotta start to wonder if the spiked chain is worth two of my eight feats to simply use it.

I'd suggest the Spinning Sword from Secrets of Sarlona as a replacement. It's a 1-handed reach weapon that also threatens at 5'. As a 1-handed weapon, you can grip it with 2 hands for 2xPA and 1.5xStr to damage as needed.

A spinning sword can't be wielded in two hands to apply 1-1/2 times a character's Strength bonus on damage rolls.

Whoops. Does that mean you can't use it in 2 hands at all (and hence no 2xPA)? Or just you don't get the 1.5xStr bonus (which IIRC is how the rapier works)?

Hm. By RAW, I think you can use it in 2 hands for 2xPA, but not the 1.5 STR bonus.

[eleazzaar]

While your listing alternatives/dips for first level for skills, don't forget martial rogue which gives a feat also (for two levels in fact). Makes for fun low level feat access.

Yeah, but unfortunately the rogue doesn't have any knowledge skill, but "local" needed to power Knowledge devotion.  If i was going for the feat, i might just take a level of fighter.

Having looked some more, my two favorite 1st level dips are:

cloistered cleric (for maxing out all the relevant knowledge skills), and
wild shaping ranger for the BAB, +10 move and points in two relevant knowledge skills.

I've looked for good divine classes that would work with a dip into 3 levels of Duskblade then something else, but those classes tend to want high CHA and/or WIS, and i didn't really see anything that seemed to synergize

Duskblad 5/ab champ 2 / Divine Crusader 2 / divine 7 (theurge?) / Ab champ 3 / hierophant 1

~ 16+ bab, 9th lvl divine, armor casting

Did you mean Mystic Theurge there?

EDIT: Also i'm not seeing how the Abjurant Champ improves on the DB significantly.  Are you assuming the addition of Abjuration spells from elsewhere?

And what Domains would work well for the Divine Crusader in this build?  I've skimmed through a bunch, but i don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of the spells, and nothing really jumped out at me.

Bard 7/Duskblade 3/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion 5/x3

OR Bard 1/Duskblade 9/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion 5/x3

Seconds build probably requires the Able Learner feat.  Either build can probably benefit by taking Abjurant Champion earlier.

Wow, that requires a lot of skill points to qualify.  Is Song of Arcane Power really worth it? Or is there something else that makes this really good?

I'd suggest the Spinning Sword from Secrets of Sarlona as a replacement. It's a 1-handed reach weapon that also threatens at 5'. As a 1-handed weapon, you can grip it with 2 hands for 2xPA and 1.5xStr to damage as needed.

That looks cool, but were not using Eberron stuff.

I did find the Changeling enchantment for Magic Item compendium that allows a spear to shift once per turn between the three different types of spear, though I'm a little worried about getting caught with the wrong kind of spear as enemies attack.

[vaz]

The spinning sword is non-setting specific, tbh. It's not like Dragonmarks, Warforged or Kalashtar (although they're MM3 material after all as well).

With Duskblade, you can afford to "dump" Int, tbh, unless you're going for spells which require saves. As those which don't, Shocking Grasp and Vampiric Touch are fairly staple to it.

Sure, skill points are nice, but to be frank, the Duskblade's class list isn't strong on skills; Knowledge (All) is fine for qualification, as is Concentration and possibly Spellcraft. You're unlikely to want more than a 14 in a point buy for Intelligence, maybe 16 if you take Apprentice (Criminal) for bluff to get into Ur-Priest. Outside of that? Nope. The Duskblade is not a "skilled" fighter as some people like to say due to it's Int focus. You're going to want a way to expand it - Human Paragon, or Able Learner Factotum to start things off.

Sublime Chord is used to get 9th level spells thanks to its faster casting progression (and slightly odd).

It requires 3rd level spells (equivalent 9th level duskblade), leaving you with 1 dip available.

If you're allowed to use Versatile Spellcaster+Heighten Spell trick to qualify for being able to cast X level spells 1 higher than usual, and Favored+Primary Contact to get into Contemplative;

Duskblade 7/Bard 1/Ur-Priest 1/Contemplative 1/Sublime Chord 2/Mystic Theurge 8 gets you at ECL20

Duskblade spells up to 2nd level (Heightened to 3rd)
Bard 0, and 4-6th-level spells
Cleric+1 Domain 9ths
Sor-Wiz 4-9th spells

Any of these can be channeled through your strike.

[altpersona]

Duskblad 5/ab champ 2 / Divine Crusader 2 / divine 7 (theurge?) / Ab champ 3 / hierophant 1

~ 16+ bab, 9th lvl divine, armor casting

Did you mean Mystic Theurge there?

EDIT: Also i'm not seeing how the Abjurant Champ improves on the DB significantly.  Are you assuming the addition of Abjuration spells from elsewhere?

And what Domains would work well for the Divine Crusader in this build?  I've skimmed through a bunch, but i don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of the spells, and nothing really jumped out at me.

Ab champ is full bab, has D10 hd and advances your db casting. could sub out the first 2 for a full bab thing, fighter 2 or similar. could sub out the last 3 for any arcane advancer.

Theurge, mystic works... thing could be juggled to qual for a different dual progressing class, but the point there is getting more cleric casting with some bonus arcane.

Domains, dont know whats best for your goals... i think the cleric handbooks have the low down on them. i dont see a domain specific handbook.

today i was looking at DB 5 / ab champ 2 / D cru 4 / Nar Demon binder 1 / M theurge 4 / arcane 2 / divine 1 / X1.

takes a hit to bab but gets lvl 8 arcane, lvl 9 divine, i didnt check if Nar is on the list....

[eleazzaar]

With Duskblade, you can afford to "dump" Int, tbh, unless you're going for spells which require saves. As those which don't, Shocking Grasp and Vampiric Touch are fairly staple to it.

Sure, skill points are nice, but to be frank, the Duskblade's class list isn't strong on skills; Knowledge (All) is fine for qualification, as is Concentration and possibly Spellcraft.

I am intending skills points to be mostly used for the knowledge, to give the the knowledge devotion attack bonuses.  With an IQ of 16 as human, i can buy by 13 level on all attacks/damage against any creature +3/+3 on the worst bad knowledge roll, and a +5/+5 on the best.

I don't have experience playing high-level characters, but that sounds pretty valuable to me.

Duskblade spells up to 2nd level (Heightened to 3rd)
Bard 0, and 4-6th-level spells
Cleric+1 Domain 9ths
Sor-Wiz 4-9th spells

Any of these can be channeled through your strike.

There's the arcane spell failure issue still for bard spells in more than light armor.  And i'm confused where the sor-wiz spell are coming from but ASF would also apply to them. EDIT: wrongly assumed sublime chord used only the bard list

Duskblad 5/ab champ 2 / Divine Crusader 2 / divine 7 (theurge?)/ Ab champ 3 / hierophant 1

~ 16+ bab, 9th lvl divine, armor casting

... Also i'm not seeing how the Abjurant Champ improves on the DB significantly.  Are you assuming the addition of Abjuration spells from elsewhere?...

Ab champ is full bab, has D10 hd and advances your db casting. could sub out the first 2 for a full bab thing, fighter 2 or similar. could sub out the last 3 for any arcane advancer.

Yeah, but the DB also has full BAB nearly as much HD and advances DB casting.  The Abj Champ is cool because you automatically qualify, but i don't see the value in it's special abjuration abilities with the DB spell list.  I'd be all for it if i knew what DB spell to take that the abjuration features would make really cool, or what outside abjuration spell to grab, but otherwise it looks like a wash.

[phaedrusxy]

There's the arcane spell failure issue still for bard spells in more than light armor.  And i'm confused where the sor-wiz spell are coming from but ASF would also apply to them.

Sublime Chord. Don't be fooled by ASF. It's a red herring. Light armor is the best armor anyway, and it's easy to get it down to 0% ASF by the time it will matter.

[eleazzaar]

...Light armor is the best armor anyway, and it's easy to get it down to 0% ASF by the time it will matter.

How so?  The move reduction certainly hurts, but chain mail or a breastplate have a higher AC (if only by one) than a chain shirt.  But based on my experience the +1 AC will keep a melee fighter alive longer than the +10 move. It might be partly luck, but nobody has dropped our plate-mail dwarven cleric yet.  I'd be happy to be convinced i'm wrong.

[Gazzien]

...Light armor is the best armor anyway, and it's easy to get it down to 0% ASF by the time it will matter.

How so?  The move reduction certainly hurts, but chain mail or a breastplate have a higher AC (if only by one) than a chain shirt.  But based on my experience the +1 AC will keep a melee fighter alive longer than the +10 move. It might be partly luck, but nobody has dropped our plate-mail dwarven cleric yet.  I'd be happy to be convinced i'm wrong.

Mainly because (I believe these are the reasons, I'm mainly guessing) at higher levels, Touch AC is what matters more than anything else, and it's fairly easy to push your DEX up to the cap of even most medium armors, so heavy armor is just not a very good plan. In addition, the majority of your AC comes from the enhancements and magic items, so the small amount from heavy armor v light armor just isn't worth the penalties you pay in move speed and lower touch AC.

[phaedrusxy]

A mithril breastplate is light armor. A Twilight Mithril Breastplate with Thistledown Padding (all in your allowed books) has 0% ASF. So does a twilight mithril heavy shield. As for the rest... here.

Of course, if you're good, you could instead use the (Greater) Luminous Armor spell (Book of Exalted Deeds) instead of armor.

[eleazzaar]

Of course, if you're good, you could instead use the (Greater) Luminous Armor spell (Book of Exalted Deeds) instead of armor.

Unfortunately that is a sanctified spell:

This section begins with a list of sanctified spells, which are available to any class that prepares spells rather than casting them spontaneously.

However, Luminous Armor is abjuration.  That looks like a spell which give a motivation to take alterpersona's Abj Champ > Div Crusader path.  Though, if i go that way i need to make sure i have plenty of restoration, and lesser restoration available.

EDIT: on second thought that's not going to stack with regular armor.

[altpersona]

Duskblad 5/ab champ 2 / Divine Crusader 2 / divine 7 (theurge?)/ Ab champ 3 / hierophant 1

~ 16+ bab, 9th lvl divine, armor casting

... Also i'm not seeing how the Abjurant Champ improves on the DB significantly.  Are you assuming the addition of Abjuration spells from elsewhere?...

Ab champ is full bab, has D10 hd and advances your db casting. could sub out the first 2 for a full bab thing, fighter 2 or similar. could sub out the last 3 for any arcane advancer.

Yeah, but the DB also has full BAB nearly as much HD and advances DB casting.  The Abj Champ is cool because you automatically qualify, but i don't see the value in it's special abjuration abilities with the DB spell list.  I'd be all for it if i knew what DB spell to take that the abjuration features would make really cool, or what outside abjuration spell to grab, but otherwise it looks like a wash.

DB lvl 6 - 10 dont stand out to me as overly valuable unless your going on to 13.

as far as abjurations go, swift casting em is handy in a pinch. and i believe that will apply to all three spell lists (db, sc, nar).

as a side note, i think the db channel ability is very gimped. it sounds cool, till i go looking for touch spells to use it with.

[wotmaniac]

There's the arcane spell failure issue still for bard spells in more than light armor.  And i'm confused where the sor-wiz spell are coming from but ASF would also apply to them.

Sublime Chord. Don't be fooled by ASF. It's a red herring. Light armor is the best armor anyway, and it's easy to get it down to 0% ASF by the time it will matter.

Also, if you're really super worried about it, and feeling really super froggy to burn some more feats, there's always Battle Caster.
Not that I'd recommend it -- just pointing out that the option exists.

as a side note, i think the db channel ability is very gimped. it sounds cool, till i go looking for touch spells to use it with.

I couldn't agree more.
You're basically stuck with spamming the same 2 schticks ad nauseum.
Which is why every duskblade I've ever seen goes way out of the way to expand their spell list ASAP.

[Empirate]

As for weapons, I'd skip the exotic weapons and simply go with a Guisarme plus Armor Spikes (maybe an Animated Shield later on, if you really still care about AC by that point of want it for the extra enchantment/gem slots). That saves you a precious feat and allows most of what a Spiked Chain does, anyway.

As far as feats are concerned, I can't not recommend Obtain Familiar, for giving you some extra versatility. If you really want to mix that schtick up, Improved Familiar is very good on a Duskblade (better HP and BAB than most arcane casters). Imps are versatile, but Beguilers (Shining South) are probably my favorite for their constant True Seeing ability, with the ability to wield (three!) weapons, camouflage and high Int as asides.

[eleazzaar]

If i had a magic item or supernatural ability that did abjuration stuff, would Abj Champion improve that?

[Snowbluff]

A DB/DivineCrusader/Abjurant Champion would have access to Luminous Armor, which would be improved the AbjChamp abilities.

[eleazzaar]

I've got a couple new builds i'd appreciate your take on.

Knowledge Devotion Duskblade
Human, high IQ

Cloistered Cleric 1 > Duskblade 4 > Warshaper 3 > Abjurant Champion 5 > ?

Feats:
1) Power Attack, Initiate of Horus Re
3) Knowledge Devotion
6) Obtain Familiar
9) Arcane Strike?
12) Something to take advantage of AoO ?

I'd probably take the Destiny and Pride Domains.
Cloistered Cleric give his knowledge skills a good start for knowledge devotion, gives abj spells, and enables Initiate of Horus Re, which gives Hawk-form wild shaping 1/day. This is useful for running away when necessary, and is a prerequisite for Warshaper, which give immunities, stat boosts, and +5 ft reach at will.  It's all well and good to say "get a spinning sword", but we don't have access to a huge amount of magic stuff, and if i get that +10ft reach would be even better.

You all will probably tell me it would be stronger if i got rid of Initiate + war shaper, and took able learner, but this looks cool, so i wanted to put it out there.


Smiting Divine Duskblade
Human, Lawful Good,
High Charisma

Duskblade 4 > Favored Soul 3 > Fist of Raziel 10 > Favored Soul 4-6

Feats:
1) Power Attack, ?
3) Obtain Familiar
6) Servant of the Heavens
...

For this build i forgo Knowledge Devotion and Arcane Strike for the Cleric list.  There are necromantic touch spells that should work well for channeling, and he would end up with L7 spells instead of the dusk blade's L5.

Fist of Raziel only costs a feat i wouldn't normally have taken, and some skill points.  It maintains a full BAB wile advancing casting, and has some other useful class features.

The feats would probably depend on the Deity's favored weapon, i.e. might go for tripping, etc, or to Wastri for the only reach weapon i could find within alignment restrictions, the glaive.