Author Topic: The most math-heavy feat ever  (Read 11529 times)

Offline Libertad

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The most math-heavy feat ever
« on: July 26, 2014, 01:30:36 PM »
From Pathfinder: Occult Mysteries.

Sacred Geometry
 
You can use your mathematical prowess to add metamagic effects to your spells without using a higher-level spell slot.

Prerequisite(s): Int 13, Knowledge (engineering) 2 ranks

Benefit(s): When you take this feat, select two metamagic feats you do not yet have. When casting a spell, you can perform the steps below to spontaneously apply the effects of either or both of these metamagic feats, as well as any other metamagic feats you have, to the spell without expending a higher-level spell slot. Using a feat in this way increases the spell's casting time to the casting time it would take if the character were a sorcerer or bard (sorcerers and bards using this ability increase the spell's casting time by two categories); applying the Quicken Spell metamagic effect negates the increased casting time but still contributes to the modified spell's effective spell level. You can take this feat more than once; each time, select two additional metamagic feats, adding their effects to the list of possible effects you can apply to spells with this ability.

When casting a spell using Sacred Geometry, first determine the effective spell level of the modified spell you are attempting to cast (calculated as normal for a spell modified by metamagic feats). You can apply any number of metamagic effects to a single spell, provided you are able to cast spells of the modified spell's effective spell level.

Refer to the Prime Constants table to determine the prime constants that can be used to cast a spell of the desired effective spell level. Then roll a number of d6s equal to the number of ranks you possess in Knowledge (engineering). Perform some combination of addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division upon the numbers rolled that gives rise to one of the relevant prime constants. If you can produce one of the relevant prime constants, the spell takes effect with the declared metamagic effects, and you expend a spell slot of the unaltered spell's level. If you are unsuccessful, you fail to cast the spell, the action used to cast the spell is lost, and the spell slot is used up. The DC of any concentration check to cast a spell affected by this feat uses the effective spell level used to determine the prime constants, even though a successful casting of the spell does not expend a higher-level spell slot.

Effective Spell LevelPrime Constants
1st3, 5, 7
2nd11, 13, 17
3rd19, 23, 29
4th31, 37, 41
5th43, 47, 53
6th59, 61, 67
7th71, 73, 79
8th83, 89, 97
9th101, 103, 107


For example, suppose a wizard wants to add the enlarged and empowered effects to the magic missile he just cast. He adds the total level increases of the metamagic effects to the spell level: 2 [empower] + 1 [enlarge] + 1 [magic missile's base level] = 4, so the spell's effective level is 4. The wizard refers to the Prime Constants table, and determines that the prime constants for that effective spell level are 31, 37, and 41.

Since the wizard has 5 ranks in Knowledge (engineering), he rolls 5d6. The results of his dice pool are 6, 6, 4, 3 and 1.

He then performs the following operations to give rise to one of the prime constants he needs: (6 × 6) + (4 – 3) × 1 = 37.

Note that he could also combine the numbers as follows: ([6 + 6] × 3) + 4 + 1 = 41. He has produced one of the prime constants for the desired effective spell level, so his empowered enlarged magic missile takes effect after the full-round casting time, and uses only a 1st-level spell slot.

If the result of his dice pool were 1, 1, 2, and 5, he would have been unable to produce any of the relevant prime constants. His attempt would have been unsuccessful, and he would have expended a full-round action and his prepared 1st-level magic missile spell with no effect.



I can't tell if this feat is worth it or not, as I bet 90% of readers would just glance at this feat and go "nope!"
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 01:33:45 PM by Libertad »

Offline Gribel

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Re: The most math-heavy feat ever
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2014, 01:47:28 PM »
It may be interesting for PbP. For actual play, designing the calculations would probably bog down combat too much.

Also, I wouldn't trust it in important situations, as it can fail. On the other hand, there's no need to use it in regular situations. Would only be useful if you're out of resources and in a desperate situation.
Oh, and stinking cloud has to be one of my favorate battlefield spells. Combined with sleet stor, you can shut a group down and keep them shut down, trapped inside a fart. When does that ever get old?

Offline wotmaniac

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Re: The most math-heavy feat ever
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2014, 02:06:38 PM »
While this is thematically interesting, I think that the guy who designed/wrote that feat and actually expected it to be used in play needs to be drug out in to the street, beaten severely about the head, neck, and torso, and then summarily shot.


Also, how tightly are you allowed to define "multiplication"?
Quote
If the result of his dice pool were 1, 1, 2, and 5, he would have been unable to produce any of the relevant prime constants.
1*(2^5)-1 = 31.
Because what is an exponent but a form of multiplication?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 02:11:27 PM by wotmaniac »

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: The most math-heavy feat ever
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2014, 02:31:49 PM »
2e Mathematicians Faction yes ?!

Well there's 4^4 combos of the die numbers,
before you start fiddling with the (parentheses) -es's.

I guess it would almost always work, but it'd take lots of game time.
I'm'n'a bet someone really fast on their toes math wise, could do it.
Your codpiece is a mimic.


Offline Maat Mons

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Re: The most math-heavy feat ever
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2014, 07:33:06 PM »
You could pick two numbers from your list, perform one of the four operations on it, put the result back into the list, and repeat until your list only contains one number.  That's 4*n*(n-1) ways of getting from a list of size n to a list of size n-1.  Which means (4^(n-1))*n!*(n-1)! ways to get from a list of size n to a list of size 1. 

If you have 20 ranks in knowledge (engineering), you roll 20 dice, so there would be (3^19)*(20!)*(19!) ≅ 3.44*10^44 possible formulas to run through.  If a computer could somehow check one formula per clock cycle, at the current record of 5.5 GHz, that'd take … much, much longer than the universe has been around to compute?  Can somebody check me on those numbers? 

Okay, lets try to find a smarter algorithm.  Anyone have any ideas? 

Offline Craiconn

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Re: The most math-heavy feat ever
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2014, 08:19:03 PM »
" ... Then roll a number of d6s equal to the number of ranks you possess in Knowledge (engineering). Perform some combination of addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division upon the numbers rolled that gives rise to one of the relevant prime constants ... "

---

It's not clear whether it is mandatory to use *ALL* the numbers ... or if you have the option to use only some of the numbers.

Offline wotmaniac

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Re: The most math-heavy feat ever
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2014, 08:58:47 PM »
" ... Then roll a number of d6s equal to the number of ranks you possess in Knowledge (engineering). Perform some combination of addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division upon the numbers rolled that gives rise to one of the relevant prime constants ... "

---

It's not clear whether it is mandatory to use *ALL* the numbers ... or if you have the option to use only some of the numbers.
I think that the implication is that you do use all the #s.  It doesn't mention using "some subset of the #s", it just says "upon the #s rolled".



There's more feats like this.

And spells, too!

More, I say!  More!

Offline Craiconn

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Re: The most math-heavy feat ever
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2014, 10:18:14 PM »
Yeah, I would rule it that way as well.  I just wish they would've specifically stated that all dice rolls must be used.

---

Too bad Echoing Spell got nerfed in transition from 3.5 to PF.  3.5 Echoing Spell woulda been a perfect metamagic feat to simulate under Sacred Geometry.  From a numbers perspective, the additional castings you'd get from a successful Echoing from Sacred Geometry would more than compensate for the occasional lost spell slot from a failed Sacred Geometry.

Offline Solo

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Re: The most math-heavy feat ever
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2014, 01:03:57 AM »
"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down."

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: The most math-heavy feat ever
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2014, 01:33:46 AM »
There's more feats like this.
I'll just roll against DC 19+SpellLevel thank you very much...

Offline Craiconn

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Re: The most math-heavy feat ever
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2014, 03:55:55 PM »
If you do a Google Image Search on 'Sacred Geometry', you kind of get an idea of the specific visual manifestation that sorta emanates from the hands and/or body of the caster who's using Sacred Geometry to augment his spellcasting. 

Like this arcanist ...

So in essence, it's as if this feat is a Spell Thematics type of feat (from the PGtF book) with vastly different game mechanics associated with it.  As many of you have noticed in recent years, a lot of video games and fan fiction art have shown Sacred Geometry-style graphical art surrounding the hands of spellcasters in lieu of traditional nebulous blobs of arcane energy.  Such art tends to help visually differentiate and trope-ify brainy, cryptic wizards from that of primal sorcerors, natural druids and deific-manifest clerics. 

I personally like the concept and aesthetics of this feat along with the Arithmancy feat ... and the Cleromancy spell and the Calculated Luck spells.  Although as Gribel stated earlier, these are not really useful tabletop game mechanics (they're more suited to PbP play) unless a player has strong system mastery of the mechanics or can mathematize this stuff out real quick.  SorO is spot-on in saying youjust  should start optimizing things like this assuming the worst-case scenario.  Otherwise, methodically number-crunching all this crap will just bore the daylights out of your table mates.



Offline Amechra

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Re: The most math-heavy feat ever
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2014, 06:27:04 PM »
Arithmancy is something I would prep beforehand.

For example, Magic Missile's Digital Root is 2.

Besides, once you can hit a DC 33, you're all set there.

I'm just sad that there isn't a PrC that expounds on this wonderfulness.

-----

Oh, and is the thread title a challenge?

Because if it is, I will write a feat that will just make Psyducks everywhere.
"There is happiness for those who accept their fate, there is glory for those that defy it."

"Now that everyone's so happy, this is probably a good time to tell you I ate your parents."

Offline Maat Mons

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Re: The most math-heavy feat ever
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2014, 06:39:18 PM »
"Each time you activate this feat, email the author.  In two to three business days, he will email you back with a list of large prime numbers …"

Offline SolEiji

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Re: The most math-heavy feat ever
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2014, 06:50:51 PM »
"Each time you activate this feat, email the author.  In two to three business days, he will email you back with a list of large prime numbers …"

I can't wait til they make things for the next edition.  I hear that you have to fill out form W420 and perform a tax audit to determine the number of squares affected by the spell effect.
Mudada.

Offline Kasz

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Re: The most math-heavy feat ever
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2014, 06:38:11 AM »
I'm a Mathemagician.

Offline Nunkuruji

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Re: The most math-heavy feat ever
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2014, 12:16:24 PM »
This step is an asshole at an actual table
Quote
He then performs the following operations to give rise to one of the prime constants he needs: (6 × 6) + (4 – 3) × 1 = 37.

I'm fairly certain the whole thing can be automated in a spreadsheet, certainly use excel vbscript if you need to code an algorithm.

Algorithm? Far from perfect, but this is a quick human consumable one
If you have rolled one 1
For each possible prime constant
Sort your die results
Against each of the 3 Prime Constants, Divide by the largest die until the remainder is equal to or less than the next largest die.
With the remainder
Subtract the next largest die when positive
Add the next largest die when negative
This approaches us to 0
At the point we're down to the last few dice, which likely has some 1's, use multiplication to eliminate the extra ((1*1) = 1) and then subtract or add it to reach 0.

I think this should work pretty good at mid to high ranks shooting for mid to high spell slots.

Worth it? Mid-Late game, yeah. Once you have enough ranks/dice the chances of being able to generate the prime constants is high. The outlying failures are freakish, like all same digit.

There's probably a real algorithm that solves this, but I'm an engineer, not a theorist.

Offline Craiconn

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Re: The most math-heavy feat ever
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2014, 08:04:15 PM »
Quote from: Nunkuruj
There's probably a real algorithm that solves this, but I'm an engineer, not a theorist.

Yeah, but ...

Quote
Prerequisite(s): Int 13, Knowledge (engineering) 2 ranks

Quote
Then roll a number of d6s equal to the number of ranks you possess in Knowledge (engineering).

 :P

Offline X-Codes

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Re: The most math-heavy feat ever
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2014, 09:01:17 PM »
I would break it down as such for some of those higher-end numbers and try to express them as sums and products of other numbers such as 7 and 11 (average sums of 2 and 3 dice, respectively) and 12 and 20 (two numbers with 5/6 the face values on the dice as factors).  If you think about it, it actually becomes quite easy to throw down a 9th-level equivalent spell:

107 = 20 * 5 + 7 or 20 * 3 + 12 * 3 + 11
103 = 20 * 4 + 12 + 11 or 20 * 6 - 12 * 2 + 7

These should be common enough results with high enough levels of Engineering skill.  Also, I'd say you shouldn't have to use all the dice, since it'd be rare for you to not be able to dump the rest through repeated multiplication by 1, anyway.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 09:04:52 PM by X-Codes »

Offline Nunkuruji

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Re: The most math-heavy feat ever
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2014, 10:31:21 PM »
Quote from: Nunkuruj
There's probably a real algorithm that solves this, but I'm an engineer, not a theorist.

Yeah, but ...

Quote
Prerequisite(s): Int 13, Knowledge (engineering) 2 ranks

Quote
Then roll a number of d6s equal to the number of ranks you possess in Knowledge (engineering).

 :P

Ah, but know the difference between Engineering and Science is largely for-profit vs. academia.

Since this is Pathfinder, there is no profit in it for me  :P. So sorry, I won't be spending my time on a bulletproof solution.