Optimization Challenge: Dispater and the Iron Siege

[Tshern]

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• Dark chaos feat shuffle: Use retraining. The idea of just getting a bunch of racial weapon proficiencies or using the Familiar/Alertness trickery for dozens of extra feats is not appealing.
• Echoing spell: With the spell slots the challengers have at that level? Not necessarily. The insane caster levels also make this a ridiculous choice. How about Automatic metamagic SDA with this? Bad.
• Invisible spell: No reason not to allow this. Probably going to be used as a metamagic reducer.
• LA buy off: No. The challengers have +5 LA to use already.
• Tauric template: Oh dear...
• Flaws: This seems iffy for deities to begin with and the challengers have 70 levels of feats to play with.
• Mind Mage: The idea of caster levels soaring to several thousands...
• Ghost: Witch ruled Ghosts cannot enter Outer Planes.
• Flesh of Orcus: Become a vampire for free?
• Taint: Seriously?

As a general note, somehow using several different campaign settings has always bugged me.

[Dreamweaver]

It is probably just me, and I'm sure I personally don't know everything there is out there either, but you sure don't seem to have a LOT of the books/magazines being asked about (although I agree about Dragon Magazine stuff needing to be extensively play tested prior to being allowed).

I'm quite certain pdfs of practically everything is available *somewhere* on-line for free.  Considering the difficulty, if not impossibility, of being able to actually buy them anymore from WotC, I think it would be slightly less illegal than it used to be. 


Anywhoo...hrm, no broken/infinite combos against a big baddie who, by your own comment, has a gigantic "No!" button?  I understand no Pun-Puns, etc..., but your gonna need to be able to pull something amazing out of your "hat of tricks" to beat this guy, if past contestants are any indication.

[Dreamweaver]

Speaking of past contestants, I'm certain I may not have read/seen every one of them, but did anyone EVER succeed?

[zook1shoe]

I'm just seeing what options are available for me, to get the best chance of being the first to succeed.

P.S. Tshern's advice is very to the point and honest

[Tshern]

Speaking of past contestants, I'm certain I may not have read/seen every one of them, but did anyone EVER succeed?

No.

[Amechra]

My method of thinking about getting rid of him is to spam some attack spell that will mess up his little barrier.

Like a Permanent Emanation Antimagic Field; that should at least get rid of his ability to activate his NO button.

Part of my chosen build is Warlock, namely for those absolutely AWESOME epic feats they get (all Conjuration spells eighth level or below on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list at will as an Ex ability.), as well as being a Sylph (I cast as a HIGH level sorcerer).

A part of me wants to grab Initiate of Mystra, just because that Permanent Emanation Antimagic Field supplies a lovely defense against the Disjunction effect that comes from the Tower of Dis.

[Tshern]

How can a greater deity be an initiate of Mystra? Makes no sense to me.

[TravelLog]

It is probably just me, and I'm sure I personally don't know everything there is out there either, but you sure don't seem to have a LOT of the books/magazines being asked about (although I agree about Dragon Magazine stuff needing to be extensively play tested prior to being allowed).

I'm quite certain pdfs of practically everything is available *somewhere* on-line for free.  Considering the difficulty, if not impossibility, of being able to actually buy them anymore from WotC, I think it would be slightly less illegal than it used to be. 

I have every non-campaign specific WoTC 3.5e book. I have most Forgotten Realms, and the basic Eberron books. If there is something particularly important, then yes, I can get it elsewhere.

here's some more books with ideas

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Fiendish Codex I-
      Shun/Embrace the Dark Chaos
      Lilitu
Dungeonscape-
      Invisible Spell
Tome of Magic-
      Fiendbinder
Unearthed Arcana-
      Prestige Bard
Player's Guide to Faerun-
      Shadow Weave Magic feat
      Runecaster
      Incantatrix
Ghostwalk-
      Ghost template
      Flesh of Orcus item
Monster Manual 2-
      Tauric template
Book of Exalted Deeds-
      Starmantle

books only (no specific ideas yet)

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Complete books ?
Race books ?
Epic Level Handbook ?
Libris Mortis ?
Lords of Madness ?
Spell Compendium ?
Frostburn ?
Sandstorm ?
Stormwrack ?
Book of Vile Darkness ?
Manual of the Planes ?
Magic Item Compendium

Rokugan books ?
Kingdom of Kalamar books ?

just curious because some of those others were already allowed by Tshern.... but if you don't what to, that's fine too

Which ones had he allowed? I'm willing to revisit my decisions.

Anywhoo...hrm, no broken/infinite combos against a big baddie who, by your own comment, has a gigantic "No!" button?  I understand no Pun-Puns, etc..., but your gonna need to be able to pull something amazing out of your "hat of tricks" to beat this guy, if past contestants are any indication.

Oh absolutely. But successes should come from intelligence and strategy rather a ridiculous build. Let me put it this way in terms of cheese: a little mozzarella is fine, but I don't want a three course cheese tasting.

Anyway:
Echoing Spell: Not allowed.
Invisible Spell: Allowed.
Mind Mage: No.
Ghost: Already ruled upon one of my predecessors, Witch. So no.
Prestige Bard: Allowed
Fiendbinder: Allowed. I'll tell you right out though that you have zero chance of learning Dispater's true name, or for that matter, of any of his entourage. Dispater is beyond paranoid, and is the most well protected of Lords of the Nine, excepting perhaps Asmodeus.
Runecaster: Allowed.
Shadow Weave Magic: I'll get back to you.
Tauric: No.
Shun the Dark Chaos: Use retraining. No.
Lilitu: No. Specifically, because of this section of it's entry. "Item Use (Ex): A Lilitu can use any item as though she had successfully used the Use Magic Device skill."
Flesh of Orcus item: No. Nothing is free.
Starmantle: Allowed.

How can a greater deity be an initiate of Mystra? Makes no sense to me.

I too am curious as to how this would be possible.

[DrHorrible]

Ok... This is going to be a noob questions but... Why is Tauric template banned? Is it broken in some way?

[TravelLog]

Ok... This is going to be a noob questions but... Why is Tauric template banned? Is it broken in some way?

Here are some interesting features of the Tauric Template:

--Hit Dice: Add the base humanoid’s and base creature’s Hit Dice to get the tauric creature’s Hit Dice, each of which changes to a d8. A humanoid that normally has a class instead of 1 Hit Die counts as a 1 HD creature.
--A tauric creature retains the natural weapons and base damage of the base humanoid and the base creature...
--Special Attacks: A tauric creature retains the special at- tacks of the base humanoid and the base creature, provided that the tauric creature is capable of delivering the attack.
--Special Qualities: A tauric creature retains the special qualities of both the base humanoid and the base creature.
--Base Saves: For each saving throw, use the base save bonus for either the base creature or the base
humanoid, whichever is higher.
--Abilities: A tauric creature uses the base humanoid’s Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores, and it uses the base creature’s Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores.
--Challenge Rating: Base creature’s CR +1

Tauric basically takes the best qualities of each component creature. For +1 CR. Example: A griffon is traditionally CR 7. However, a Tauric Griffon Medusa is CR 5 and superior in nearly every way.

[Tshern]

Witch didn't actually start the challenge. Selah did, but I believe he only ran a single one.

DrHorrible: Tauric is essentially a way of combining the physical might and abilities of brute monsters with the mental ability scores and special qualities of a humanoid part for basically no cost.

[Ithamar]

Well Tauric takes the HD of the base animal / vermin / magical beast + base creature HD (humanoid or monstrous humanoid) + 1 extra HD + any existing LA + 2 more LA for the template.

So it isn't altogether without cost.  And if you limit it to animals only like I do, it isn't really any different from lycanthropy really.

[Tshern]

With +5 free LA and 70 hit dice in use that is hardly a cost.

[Dreamweaver]

So...wait.  Because you (or whoever came up with it) gave us "+5 LA free and up to 70 HD" for character creation, something that takes advantage of that is "free" or essentially "doesn't have a cost"?

Really?  What if we took off 5 HD and +3 LA free so we only had: +2 LA free and up to 65 HD?

Would Tauric (or something similar that gave HD and LA) suddenly be "ok"?

I mean, after looking at Tauric, I can see how you could take 2 powerful creatures, one physical and one mental, and create a powerful single monster with both those excellent capabilities, but isn't that the point?  At 70 or so HD, aren't fantastical gawds of undeniable power supposed to exist?  Can't they have forms and mental faculties far beyond mortal comprehension?  I mean, if your gonna use a statement like "how can a gawd be an Initiate of Mystra?", then can't I say "why would my diety be anything remotely normal in regards to any part of its being, physical, mental, or power -wise?"


But again, I guess I just find it odd that these kinds of simple things would be ruled out, when you've already stated "no broken pun-pun-esqe/infinite combos".  Ok, so they make a Tauric something, who cares as long as it doesn't create/perform a horribly broken pun-pun/infinite combo?  Nothing else has worked so far, so why should it?

Lets face it:

Dispater is nigh unkillable without something super amazing!

Hell, he is nigh unAPPROACHABLE without something super amazing!

Tauric might help produce something good enough to at least APPROACH the "super amazing" mark.

[Tshern]

Edit: I did not see that TravelLog had responded to the Tauric thing, so I assumed Dreamweaver was answering to me. Realised that might be a mistake, so I put my answers in a spoiler.

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So...wait.  Because you (or whoever came up with it) gave us "+5 LA free and up to 70 HD" for character creation, something that takes advantage of that is "free" or essentially "doesn't have a cost"?

With the given level adjustment allowance and seventy levels to play with a challenger could pick up something from dozens of options, paying a small price, but essentially losing nothing. There is not much difference with what you can do with, say, 65 levels and 70 levels. Especially given the divine ranks at play.

I think the ruling you refer to was made by Selah.

Really?  What if we took off 5 HD and +3 LA free so we only had: +2 LA free and up to 65 HD?

Would Tauric (or something similar that gave HD and LA) suddenly be "ok"?

I never said the negligible cost was the main reason I don't like Tauric. I find the entire concept of the template ludicrous.

I mean, after looking at Tauric, I can see how you could take 2 powerful creatures, one physical and one mental, and create a powerful single monster with both those excellent capabilities, but isn't that the point?  At 70 or so HD, aren't fantastical gawds of undeniable power supposed to exist?  Can't they have forms and mental faculties far beyond mortal comprehension?  I mean, if your gonna use a statement like "how can a gawd be an Initiate of Mystra?", then can't I say "why would my diety be anything remotely normal in regards to any part of its being, physical, mental, or power -wise?"

While you are certainly free to say whatever you want, I would want to point out that I am not the one responsible for allowing or banning material from the challenge anymore. However, as I stated above, I find the entire Tauric template ludicrous much like I have issues with templates such as Divine minion.

But again, I guess I just find it odd that these kinds of simple things would be ruled out, when you've already stated "no broken pun-pun-esqe/infinite combos".  Ok, so they make a Tauric something, who cares as long as it doesn't create/perform a horribly broken pun-pun/infinite combo?  Nothing else has worked so far, so why should it?

I am not responsible for the rulings.

Lets face it:

Dispater is nigh unkillable without something super amazing!

Hell, he is nigh unAPPROACHABLE without something super amazing!

Tauric might help produce something good enough to at least APPROACH the "super amazing" mark.

Have you read any of the characters sheets of the previous challengers? I would rank them, quite categorically, as super-amazing.

[Look]

What is your stance on material from the Dragon Compendium? Notably the Dvati.

Also, I assume Illumians with "Aeshkrau" are fair game?

[TravelLog]

What is your stance on material from the Dragon Compendium? Notably the Dvati.

Also, I assume Illumians with "Aeshkrau" are fair game?

As I mentioned earlier, Dragon Magazine stuff is iffy at best and needs to be judged on a by case basis.
As for Dvati? Example of why people don't like Dragon Magazine. It's ridiculous to give a player two characters like that, regardless of the penalties to make it "balanced."
Dvati: Not Allowed
Illumians:: Totally fine. Allowed.

Re: Tauric
I understand where you're coming from, but I'm sorry. Tauric a huge broken template, and it throws out a lot of the normal rules as let you cherry pick the best of both worlds. More importantly, I've seen most of the challengers. They were without exception "beyond super-amazing."

I think that if anyone does eventually beat Dispater, it will be because of brilliant planning and strategy, not just an uber-build. Creativity and unusual thinking go farther than optimization (though that certainly doesn't hurt).

[zook1shoe]

What is your stance on material from the Dragon Compendium? Notably the Dvati.

Also, I assume Illumians with "Aeshkrau" are fair game?

As I mentioned earlier, Dragon Magazine stuff is iffy at best and needs to be judged on a by case basis.
As for Dvati? Example of why people don't like Dragon Magazine. It's ridiculous to give a player two characters like that, regardless of the penalties to make it "balanced."
Dvati: Not Allowed
Illumians:: Totally fine. Allowed.

Re: Tauric
I understand where you're coming from, but I'm sorry. Tauric a huge broken template, and it throws out a lot of the normal rules as let you cherry pick the best of both worlds. More importantly, I've seen most of the challengers. They were without exception "beyond super-amazing."

I think that if anyone does eventually beat Dispater, it will be because of brilliant planning and strategy, not just an uber-build. Creativity and unusual thinking go farther than optimization (though that certainly doesn't hurt).

*nods*

[Mixster]

Weird, I thought I posted this question a few days ago.

But has anyone ever tried a skillful approach? I mean with around 200+ in bluff you should be able to lie your way through hell, and with 149+ in diplomacy everything you meet will be your fanatic follower. And if you have +119 in survival, you can find Dispaters throneroom by triangulation.

I mean it's not sure fire, but getting to those stats, need not take more than the item familiar feat and some skill points, which with the given stats is hardly a cost at all.

[Garryl]

You did post, but in the other thread.