Sublime Chord shenanigans

[.Zero]

I have some questions.

First off, are things on this link correct?

http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/45421/how-are-caster-levels-determined-in-concert-with-the-feat-master-spellthief

If they are correct, you can continue to read this, but if they are not, please explain why and please explain how do those things work.


If that is correct a Bard 1/Wizard 8/ Sublime Chord 10 has three separate caster levels, which SC sets to 18. Now we add a level of Spellthief and Master Spellthief and everything goes to 72.

Now, let's forget a moment about PrCs prerequisites and take something like Bard1/Wizard5/Chameleon10/Sublime Chord 4/Spellthief1, with Master Spellthief.

1) Is the Chameleon cl affected by the SC 'spells per day' ability? If so, should this build have a cl 45 for arcane spells? If not, should the cl for arcane spells be 47?

2) Is it possible to add the SC's spells per day to the Chameleon's spellcasting? And in general, can PrCs progress Chameleon spellcasting?
I think i know the answer of this question is 'no' but i'd like to see why.

3) Does caster level boosters count towards the SC's ability to increase caster level? I mean, if the first build has an orange ioun stone and a bead of karma, does the total caster level be 92?

4) Say, you are bard 1/wizard 8/ SC 1/ Spellthief 1 and you add your SC's 'spells per day' to wizard. Now you take 9 levels in another random full-casting PrC, progressing Sublime Chord. Does the added level of that PrC contribute to the cl shenanigans? Is the build's final cl 72?

Thanks.

[faeryn]

A small thing first. Master Spellthief has a debated effect. If MS actually adds class levels then MS & SC don't actually stack, otherwise everything checks out.

Now onto your questions.

1) Yes, Chameleon has it's own full spell progression and is treated as an Arcane Spellcasting Class so long as you choose Arcane Focus for the day. Since it is only an Arcane Spellcasting Class while Arcane Focus is applied then you can't use it as the target of SC's spells per day leaving you to stack SC4 with Wiz5 for CL9 to all classes, Chameleon would override with it's higher CL20

Your caster level is equal to twice your class level.

Master Spellthief can then total everything giving you a CL of 56 while using Arcane Focus and 36 when not using Arcane Focus.

2) For the reason stated above I must agree the answer to this one is no. Chameleon is only an Arcane Spellcaster while under the effects of Arcane Focus.

3) All CL bonuses from items are added only to the final result of the stacked CLs. Since bonuses from the same source do not stack your Orange Ioun stone would only increase your CL by +1, not +1 per class. It will still boost all your classes by +1 but after all stackings have been completed. So your CL would be 57 using an Orange Ioun Stone with Chameleon under Arcane Focus, and 37 otherwise. (CL of 73 in the first build) +4 from Bead of Karma brings these up to 62, 42, & 77.

4)It is unclear as to how this would actually progress. I would wager that you could progress either Wizard or SC with those 9 levels of a prC and have the same result. If this result is a higher CL or no CL increase I'm not certain. It might only just add 9 to your CL even. There's several ways this could go.
- CL9 x 4 = CL36; CL36 + 9 = CL45 (prC9 only increases final CL by 9)
- CL9 + 9 = CL18; CL18 x 4 = CL72 (prC9 increases Wizard or SC by 9 then stacks)
- CL9 x 4 = CL36; CL36 + 0 = CL36 (prC9 doesn't increase Wizard or SC CL)
Any of these are possibilities... regardless of which one it is though you will still have a higher CL than normal for your level.-

[awaken_D_M_golem]

iirc Bauglir tried to do a guide for CL shenanigans
back at the brilliangameologists predecessor board.

His conclusion was, wotc used inconsistent language
to describe these things, making it rather impossible
to come to a solid answer.

Still, he put some general build ideas on it, with
middle-of-the-road interpretations of the shaky rules.

edit 
found it ---> http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9983.10

[Captnq]

Actually, I find the Mystic Ranger/Wizard/Mystic Theurge (Because you can apply both +1 Levels to the Mystic Ranger) and sublime Chord can get your CL into the 50's quite easily.

Sublime adds to Wizard which adds to Mystic ranger which also gets from sublime chord... or something. Get's confusing. I almost thought I figured out an infinite feedback loop once, but it got shot down. It's the poor wording of Sot... whatever. That stupid feat that you need to follow Mystra to get. It interacts with Mystic Ranger in odd ways.

Of course it requires about three different things any sane DM with spit their own skull out upon reading one of them, but TECHNICALLY, if you choose to read it a certain way, yeah, you can do it without Chameleon shenanigans.

[zook1shoe]

Nar Demonbinder and Knight of the Weave increase your CL very quickly

throw in Theurgic feats for even more..... fun

[Mithril Leaf]

I personally do not believe that interpretation is correct as when I look look at the second paragraph:

Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells. The character described above would have a caster level of 8th for both his spellthief spells and his wizard spells.

The context implies to me that it is referring to levels in Arcane Spellcasting Classes, rather than your caster level for arcane spells. Thus in the build stub you posted (Wiz 8/ Bard 1/ Sublime Chord 10/ Spellthief 1) you would have a Caster level of 20 for all of your classes.

[faeryn]

I personally do not believe that interpretation is correct as when I look look at the second paragraph:

Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells. The character described above would have a caster level of 8th for both his spellthief spells and his wizard spells.

The context implies to me that it is referring to levels in Arcane Spellcasting Classes, rather than your caster level for arcane spells. Thus in the build stub you posted (Wiz 8/ Bard 1/ Sublime Chord 10/ Spellthief 1) you would have a Caster level of 20 for all of your classes.

Personally I agree with you on that interpretation. It's the interpretation my DM and I both use as well. But some people are otherwise convinced that it refers to caster level. I mentioned the fact that the effect is disputed in my previous post.

But yes, their CL should only be 20 with Master Spell thief added in.

[zook1shoe]

That's why Elemental Theurgy is needed badly (or one of the other dr325 theurgy feats)

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

The above only references "spellcasting classes" not "caster level of ..."

Therefore it suffers from the same difficulties as master spellthief. I have a whole thread on the arcane dilliante (or however you spell it) where I debunked the CL shenanigans.

Most DMs won't allow more than 20 in CL boosters anyways (so CL40 is max).

[zook1shoe]

there's a difference in the words "sum of all spellcasting classes" and "sum of all spellcasting class levels"

Master Spellthief refers to class levels and doesn't work, while Elemental Theurgy does not and would work

also, remember each class has a different CL equation, most are CL = levels but not all

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

there's a difference in the words "sum of all spellcasting classes" and "sum of all spellcasting class levels"

Master Spellthief refers to class levels and doesn't work, while Elemental Theurgy does not and would work

also, remember each class has a different CL equation, most are CL = levels but not all

... I was looking past the incorrect language in the RAW. We can do RAW.

RAW it adds how many spellcasting classes you have. So if you are a wizard 10 / Sorc 10, you only have 2 spellcasting classes. So can cast elemental spells as if your CL was 2. RAW this is more specific than the usual minimum CL language. It seems like yet another way to make the minimum CL of certain spells 1.

If you want higher than normal CL with that feat, then you have to take more spellcasting classes than your depth in any one class.

[.Zero]

The above only references "spellcasting classes" not "caster level of ..."

Therefore it suffers from the same difficulties as master spellthief. I have a whole thread on the arcane dilliante (or however you spell it) where I debunked the CL shenanigans.

Most DMs won't allow more than 20 in CL boosters anyways (so CL40 is max).

And where can i find that thread? It would be a very interesting reading for me. But i still believe in the Sublime Chord + Master Spellthief cheese, i'll explain why another time, i don't have time right now.

[faeryn]

The above only references "spellcasting classes" not "caster level of ..."

Therefore it suffers from the same difficulties as master spellthief. I have a whole thread on the arcane dilliante (or however you spell it) where I debunked the CL shenanigans.

Most DMs won't allow more than 20 in CL boosters anyways (so CL40 is max).

And where can i find that thread? It would be a very interesting reading for me. But i still believe in the Sublime Chord + Master Spellthief cheese, i'll explain why another time, i don't have time right now.

Master Spellthief feat quite clearly states that this doesnt work... Both Sublime Chord and Master Spellthief stack Levels in the classes to determine CL they don't stack actual CL... this is intended to keep your CL from exceeding your character level.

Master Spellthief

( Complete Scoundrel, p. 79)

[General]

Your arcane studies allow you to mingle arcane magic of different flavors for great effect.
Prerequisite
Ability to cast 2nd-level arcane spells, steal spell,
Benefit
Your spellthief levels stack with levels of other arcane spellcaster classes (that is, levels of any class that grants arcane spellcasting other than the spellthief) for the purpose of determining what level of spell you can steal. For example, a 4th-level spellthief/4th-level wizard could steal spells of up to 4th level, as if he were an 8th-level spellthief. Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells. The character described above would have a caster level of 8th for both his spellthief spells and his wizard spells. In addition, you do not incur a chance of arcane spell failure for arcane spells cast or stolen from other classes, but only if you are wearing light armor. You incur the normal arcane spell failure chance when wearing medium or heavy armor or when using a shield.
Normal
A spellthief does not incur a chance of arcane spell failure when casting spellthief spells in light armor. He incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for other arcane spells he casts, including those stolen from arcane casters (Complete Adventurer 15).

It's right there in the feat description. The feat specifies class levels.