[3.5/PF] Artificer tier with consumables banned

[ImperatorK]

I'm working on a new magic item system where wands, scrolls, staves or other consumables don't exist. I understand that Artificer's high tier was a result of his ability to cheaply and easily craft such items with any spell they wanted. What tier would he be in a game with the above mentioned system in place (and assuming that custom items can't be crafted, with the exception of adding multiple official abilities/effects to one item)?

[littha]

Probably a high 3/low 2?

Construct army style artificers are basically just necromancers with more expensive pets so I would have thought they would be around the same power level.

An artificer who crafts items (weapons/armor) for the rest of the party probably sits at about the same as a decently optimised bard I suppose....

An artificer focusing on wonderous items that cast spells (the ones that arn't consumable obviously) would vary wildly depending on the items...

[Soft Insanity]

Eternal Wands and Minor Schemas aren't consumables and redeem the class in such a scenario.
Level 1 you're stuck using weapon infusion: bane, but starting at level 2 you're gonna be using spell storing infusion. (unless you're a warforged with the broken sublevels, then you start with wizard casting)
Level 3 is when things pick up due to wondrous item.  Artificer is in heaven in a custom item rules game regardless of consumables.
Level 6 is eternal wands.  Metamagic spell trigger level 7 with eternal wands isn't great, as you can max use +1 metamagic.  What is great is metamagic item infusion with eternal wands (which you already have).  You wind up not getting divine spells with eternal wands however, unless you use cheesy excuses.  Also eternal wands suffer from locked caster levels and max spell level 3.  However, that's good enough to carry you to level 12 with 8th level spell storing giving you 4th level spells.
Level 12 (10 if you give the feat for free like you should), you get etch minor schema, which is a game changer.  It will allow the artificer to use metamagic spell completion and metamagic scroll infusion to great effect.  Unfortunately, the limiting factor on schemas is focus and material costs.  The spell can't have any high cost (over 1gp) components/focus.  Schemas can only be of level 6 spells/infusions, but from any list.  This is all you need to play with the big boys pre-epic because of cheap/free metamagic.

From my own experience playing the game, it would be only slightly harder to play without scrolls and very difficult to play without wands.  That said, artificer is still going to be a T1 class.  The often ignored infusions replicate and surpass many of the best rated spells, especially weapon and armor augments.  This is true in the low levels, with the only limitation being oil costs.  The ability to have more magic items makes up for most of the weaknesses of the class.  You won't be getting 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells unless they're lower on other lists.  Luckily there are a few that fit that criterion.
If you are doing away with eternal wands and minor schemas, the class is still playable and still T-1.  The reason, as mentioned earlier, is custom items.  Now, if you don't allow custom items, the class is still T-1 due to the ability to get immunity to everything through items and infusions.  That's not something a run of the mill sorcerer or psion can do.  Of course, that's going to be extremely boring to play imho.  Only a disjunction is going to slow you down, but it would have anyway.

[SorO_Lost]

The Artificer's Tier doesn't change with the loss of certain items because if you know how to measure classes in the first place then  itemsare obviously a secondary factor in the first place. After all, everyone gets items, even mindless monsters that don't use equipment.

If your DM lets you create custom items then rejoice, your DM is letting you break the game by ignoring all advice to the final cost of a Magic Item (conquincidencely, this has nothing to do with the artificer btw) then pick up continuous True Strike and such. Schemas are expensive Wands and if they are on the table I'd tell everyone else you're playing with to snag one of Concurrent Infusions, they can use it to access your entire 1st level list and cast any three once per day so your character doesn't have to participate in battle. 

Ok bashing aside, like any other low Teir Class you either need to stick to what's easy to break or accept being overshadowed. Sacrificing people for profit is a huge benefit but I can see it being banned off virtually every table ever. Metamagic Item & Persist Spell with the party's Schemas turns you into a buff engine if no one else is going Incantatrix or Spelldancer. Item Alteration, specially when used on a Persisted Spell, let's you play the boring numbers game to very useful heights. And Enhance Item when used on low DC items can be extremely useful, like DC 27+ Stunning by using a +2 Ability.

[Soft Insanity]

then pick up continuous True Strike and such

It helps to read the spell your hoping to base the item off of.
"You gain temporary, intuitive insight into the immediate future during your next attack. Your next single attack roll (if it is made before the end of the next round) gains a +20 insight bonus. Additionally, you are not affected by the miss chance that applies to attackers trying to strike a concealed target. "
Truestrike calls out "temporary" and "single" inside the spell and those are the duration.  It's not a valid spell for making into a continuous item as it requires a duration of at least 1 round in order to apply multipliers.  The designers did this on purpose.  There's a few other spells that use a swift action, have a duration of one round, and specifically say they only last a single round.  Those spells are not persist-able, and can't be made into continuous items either.

Schemas are expensive Wands and if they are on the table I'd tell everyone else you're playing with to snag one of Concurrent Infusions, they can use it to access your entire 1st level list and cast any three once per day so your character doesn't have to participate in battle. 

Schemas are based on scrolls, and are spell completion.  Concurrent Infusions on a schema is going to require a bunch of UMD checks, and will be limited by material components/focus.  You won't be able to use spell storing item infusion in a concurrent infusion from a schema due to the xp cost.  You will be able to use lesser personal weapon aug, but by this level, it's not gonna be the be all end all.  In fact, your list of infusions that are able to be put on schemas is shockingly small.

Metamagic Item & Persist Spell with the party's Schemas turns you into a buff engine if no one else is going Incantatrix or Spelldancer.

Metamagic item is for spell trigger.  Schemas are spell completion.  Schemas will use your metamagic spell completion* and can explicitly benefit from metamagic scroll 1st level infusion since they are mentioned in it by name.  You get a finite number of metamagic spell completion uses per day, but you can increase them by extend/persisting item alteration on your multiple +6 intelligence* common effect buffs.

Item Alteration, specially when used on a Persisted Spell, let's you play the boring numbers game to very useful heights. And Enhance Item when used on low DC items can be extremely useful, like DC 27+ Stunning by using a +2 Ability.

Item Alteration is one of the infusions I hinted at earlier, and can be as game-shattering as you let it be.  Enhance item feat is primarily useful for wand blasting however.  The biggest ignored infusions are armor augs.  Armor augs can get you  the ability to be imperceptible to your enemies, the ability to teleport around as well as every other movement mode in the game, the list goes on.  The hidden gem for me in infusions, however, is good ol' lucky cape.  Just a single reroll with a decent duration to use it by.  If that's not enough, just chock up the huge oil costs for doomwarding weapon aug.

[Gazzien]

(Don't mind SorO, he has a thing against Artificers...)

Without consumables? Eh? You can still reduce all item costs to a fraction of a percent of normal cost, and have everyone in your team outfitted with effective +10 weapons and armor, +6 to all stats, +5 tomes to all stats, constant fly, mind blank, freedom of movement... it's very strong. I mean, you can't blast spells everywhere because you can't use wands, but... I never used them anyways! When you reduce cost to < 1%, you can just make use-activated wondrous items of everything you need, and never worry about charges or (trivial) UMD checks.

[Soft Insanity]

(Don't mind SorO, he has a thing against Artificers...)

So do I, hypocritically.  I ban them outright when I'm DM.  However, they're my go to class when I play.  The reason I responded is because playing the class correctly is difficult with all the bad handbooks out there.

Metamagic spell trigger is perhaps the worst class feature any class has imho.  Metamagic spell completion, the best feature in the game by itself(not combo'd).  Metamagic item infusion is pretty good, and downright broken if you are using action point wand charge tricks.  Metamagic scroll is good for throwing things like reach or extend on your schemas/scrolls, but they finally started to realize how busted things were and limited it.

I use scrolls and schemas mostly after level 12 due in part to not wanting to make custom staves.  I also never saw the need to make custom items, especially when schemas become available.  A well played artificer is going to be a party asset in the low levels, and a show stealer in the high levels.  The mids are where you vary and probably represent the last actual playable levels of the class imho.(13+ is just ridiculous)

I mean, you can't blast spells everywhere because you can't use wands, but... I never used them anyways! When you reduce cost to < 1%, you can just make use-activated wondrous items of everything you need, and never worry about charges or (trivial) UMD checks.

I loved my Haste 1 trapsmith, tyche's touch (and other save boosters), heroics/magic circle/etc ect wands.  They define my character in combat.  Btw, you can't reduce costs that low.  Most artificers are hovering between 10% and 13%, with few dipping below 8% due to a required extreme investment.  By the way, UMD checks can get out of hand really quickly if you're not paying attention to them.  Best bet is to persist magic savant asap.  From level 1-3 there's a large chance you won't be making your UMD checks to use scrolls unless you're an azurin rocking the spectacles (as most of my artificer are).  Then you can move on to a circlet of persuasion and finally admiral's bicorne if you're like me and don't want to make custom umd boosters.

[SorO_Lost]

@Soft, a continuous item of True Strike is one of the examples used for bad pricing in one of the online articles and when they said it's a continuous use they meant that, not a once per ever effect and certainly not Persisted.

You're right Schemas are Spell Completion vs Trigger. I really need to use those things more, but truth is Wands & Insignia items are cheaper and better, Schemas only offer the benefit of being able to rob the Artificer list, which isn't exactly that great to begin with.

However, I have no idea what you imagine Concurrent Infusions is, there are UMD checks for using the Schema (which the artificer must do even if it is an infusion), but there are no UMD checks as part of CI. The trick with it is it never once says your list or even the Artificer List, simply choose any 1st level Infusion. Also you have no limitation on what you choose, the selected Infusions behave as if you cast them, the Schema is only casting a XP/Material-Free CI that never changes based on which you choose.

In addition, Enhance Item's best using isn't Wand blasting, extra d6s are based on caster level, it's meant for Save DCs. Because Enhance Item only increases Save DCs to begin with. Mayhap you're thinking of Wand Binding which per OP would be a useless Feat.

I do fully agree Metamagic Spell Trigger sucks through, additional Standard Actions are the best way to increase the effectiveness of your Wands.

[JohnnyMayHymn]

what about resetting traps?

[Gazzien]

Sorry, yeah, not < 1%, was thinking <10%. Misplaced the decimal in my head when I was looking at the excel sheet I had made for my artificer.

And yeah, resetting traps are ridiculous.

[Soft Insanity]

@Soft, a continuous item of True Strike is one of the examples used for bad pricing in one of the online articles and when they said it's a continuous use they meant that, not a once per ever effect and certainly not Persisted.

Can you give me a link to that?  I'm pretty sure I've read it as well.  I had a very long multipage debate where I was supporting the use of truestrike on items as my basis for why custom items shouldn't be allowed in a game I was in.  Another, more knowledgeable player (at the time), with actual system mastery broke it down why you can't have such an item to begin with.  I'll try to find that debate.  Funny enough both he and I hate to dm for artificers, but he was in support of custom items with a dm giving the price.  I was and still am against the very idea of anything custom due to the vast number of things you can already make.  Schemas move it all to level 12 at least.

In addition, Enhance Item's best using isn't Wand blasting, extra d6s are based on caster level, it's meant for Save DCs. Because Enhance Item only increases Save DCs to begin with.

Successful blasting is highly dependent on save DCs.  An extra d6 is not as good if the ref half DC is so low they're gonna be making it every time.  That difference is huge, with a 4th level spells having a DC of 16 without enhance item, and 20+ with it.  Since you're expected to be going up against the book, and not whatever the dm feels like, I see enhance item more as a blasting feat than anything else.  I still take it if I can for the other reasons you've mentioned, but it's not at the top of the feat list.

However, I have no idea what you imagine Concurrent Infusions is, there are UMD checks for using the Schema (which the artificer must do even if it is an infusion), but there are no UMD checks as part of CI.

Yup, that looks to be the case.  It breathes new life into spell storing infusion.  I mean, who doesn't want to summon 9 fiendish hill giants?
Basically, the artificer is ahead of the game at all levels until levels 15/16, and can use metamagic better than most classes.  If I were a gm, that alone would give me pause.

Now, the idea that an artificer has access to everything at level 1 in terms of spells due to minimizing caster level, means the class will always be T-1.  Also, don't get me started on the literal artificer who has ALL the item creation feats at the level they become available to other classes except those listed at a given level.  That means they start off with all the Eberron reducers, which are item creation feats.  Of course you'd have to be crazy to allow that as a DM since as you've mentioned on other threads, psionic artificer disproves that (in theory).  That said, I'm playing a literal artificer in a gestalt game just so I can craft mobile portals instead of using enveloping pits/portable holes.  I think it's more fun to have a shop based in a large city that you can go back to through your shrunken huge tower shield portal with called* built in just in case you're afraid you might lose the shield.  It even works in areas with forbiddence like effects

[Soft Insanity]

Item Alteration, specially when used on a Persisted Spell

You can't use item alteration on persisted spells, but you can use them on infusions (persisted or otherwise).  Infusions are treated as magic items you make on the spot for everything but dispel magic effects, where they are instead treated as spells would be.  So an infused fox's cunning that is item altered to give an inherent bonus will stack with another infused or normally cast fox's cunning.  Item Alteration is easily the most broken infusion, even beating out spell storing's summon giants cheese and metamagic item's metamagic stacking.  If you're going to do this, don't use infusions, just use multiple same slot +6 common effects.  I don't remember off the top of my head, but there are at least 7 different types for stat boosts.  If you can extend persist reach alter* them, you will be able to get bonus infusions from higher stat, where you 100% won't be with altered infusions of fox's cunning.

[SorO_Lost]

Can you give me a link to that?  I'm pretty sure I've read it as well.

No, but I can give you the updated 3.5 Article link, but I think it was a Sage or Ask Wizard entry. Since the various D&D forums discuss Truestrike, google results are bogged down.

Successful blasting is highly dependent on save DCs.

Rays & Touch attacks rarely have Saves vs damage, instead you Save against their secondary effects. If you want to know how to optimize Spell Damage I'm up for showing you how, maybe the OP can benefit as well.

However, I have no idea what you imagine Concurrent Infusions is, there are UMD checks for using the Schema (which the artificer must do even if it is an infusion), but there are no UMD checks as part of CI.

Yup, that looks to be the case.  It breathes new life into spell storing infusion.  I mean, who doesn't want to summon 9 fiendish hill giants?

CI is amazing but you just found it's limitation. It effects one item and Spell Storing Item cannot be stacked multiple times on a single item.

Now, the idea that an artificer has access to everything at level 1 in terms of spells due to minimizing caster level, means the class will always be T-1.

I think you mean cherry picking Spells off alternative Spell Lists. Let's not forget the Artificer is the only one here, Warlocks and Chameleons can do it and Chameleons can do it a few levels faster than the Artificer after the 6th level. You also have the Archivist (a real T1) and True Dragons (which use T2 spellcasting) to consider as well as Wizards and the mere presence of PrCs like the Recaster (learn every spell ever and access time is 15 minutes or less instead of weeks). Also per crafting rules you can fill in Spellcasting Requirements using allies so Hirelings, Planar Binding/Ally and Gate puts pretty much everything on the table for the entire T2 list and most of the T3s, except they are capable of using Ice Assassin to mitigate paying additional XP costs and can Mind Rape up permanent allies.

So me it sounds like you heard some things about real Spellcasters and dismissed them as being too powerful and forgot about them, then tried optimizing an Artificer under various contexts, such infinite preparation time prior to every encounter for Bat Man style load outs, and were shocked at the results.

You can't use item alteration on persisted spells, but you can use them on infusions (persisted or otherwise).

Second one today, I'm on a roll. I'll get my brain back probably next year.

[Soft Insanity]

So me it sounds like you heard some things about real Spellcasters and dismissed them as being too powerful and forgot about them, then tried optimizing an Artificer under various contexts, such infinite preparation time prior to every encounter for Bat Man style load outs, and were shocked at the results.

I know about real spellcasters being better.  Also artificer is a cohort class plain as day.  I just happen to like playing them.  As for infinite preparation time, in a game without action points infusions are a nightmare to run without basic scouting.  That's why I mainly focus on buffing with wands supplemented with spell storing, and couldn't imagine the game without them in the low to mid levels.  The strength of the artificer over the archivist is mainly that you don't have to go out of your way to fill your spellbook with spells and hope that dragons are a thing so you can get those higher level arcane spells as divine in your book.  Archivist and wizard are "dm please gimme" classes imho.  Artificer is a "dm gimme" class too, but for time, resources, and gold.  Only druid is a truly dm independent T-1 class, and then only if you play them as dirty hippies.

Rays & Touch attacks rarely have Saves vs damage, instead you Save against their secondary effects. If you want to know how to optimize Spell Damage I'm up for showing you how, maybe the OP can benefit as well.

I know how to maximize spell damage, thanks.  I only blast rarely, mostly using wings of flurry.  I'm lazy that way.  Part of the reason I'm still allowed to play even in "high optimization" games is I scale back in some areas.  I get looks shooting "ray of stupidity" at the animal of the week and one shotting it, imagine the looks I'd get if I threw 800 damage combustions every round?  I realize no saves are the best way to go, but most AoE offer saves.  I'd always rather have the BSF and GC doing the DPS while I focus on keeping the party alive.  All while hopefully the enemy doesn't realize I exist.  That's just my play style.  More Oracle than Batman.  If a DM would let me get experience, my artificers would even phone it in (not be on the battlefield and communicating with magic).  Of course wizards can do that better and no sane DM allows it.
That said, the artificer has the option to blast, summon, have an army (very bad option, necro does it better), and basically fill multiple rolls.  They are the king of skills and the economy thanks to cleric spells, actually having skill points, and having int as a primary stat.  The ability to fabricate at level 3 is just insane.  You've already mentioned nobody allows xp treadmills for crafting.  That leads to their biggest flaw which we've discussed in other threads already.  They are perpetually 1-2 levels behind the party in your average game.  That can be offset by using the web rules and phb 2 spell to let others share xp costs.  However, I have yet to find any takers.

On a side note, Anyone who considers playing an artificer who sells to their group should consider doing so either at their full reduced price, or slightly higher to cover infusion oil costs.  That's normally where the hate for the class comes from, players making huge profits off the party.

[SorO_Lost]

The strength of the artificer over the archivist is mainly that you don't have to go out of your way to fill your spellbook with spells and hope that dragons are a thing so you can get those higher level arcane spells as divine in your book.  Archivist and wizard are "dm please gimme" classes imho.  Artificer is a "dm gimme" class too, but for time, resources, and gold.  Only druid is a truly dm independent T-1 class, and then only if you play them as dirty hippies.

I'm not understanding your logic here. Both the Wizard and Archivist naturally learn Spells from their List as they level putting them on par with a Druid. It's learning off list that requires outside resources and some of the tricks are pretty simple. Like 5.5k later and the Wizard gains access to every Arcane Spell in the existence of D&D without even having to know if a key example is there or not, like the Artificer has to somehow learn Haste is a 1st level Spell off the Trapsmith's Spell List whereas the Wizard simply sees it listed in an appendix. As for obtaining said item, MiC says a Gather Information Check means you can buy it and a Wizard can simply craft it anyway. So I mean really, you can toss a naked high level Wizard in a vacuum as long as they took Spell Mastery once and function just fine, even build a city and populate if it they choose. The lack of a DM limiting them is what allows them to do it, not the other way around.

I get looks shooting "ray of stupidity" at the animal of the week and one shotting it, imagine the looks I'd get if I threw 800 damage combustions every round?

They would be surprised at your resourcefulness to break the game in several ways.

[CaptRory]

The problem is, at its core, with the people and not the machine.

Any class can break the game. Anyone can break any game if they have a mind to.

If you aren't doing it to be malicious then you shouldn't have any problem toning it down or helping the other players work on their characters to help bring them up to speed. Anything that winnows down options falls harder on the backs of the classes that lack their own power. Check out The Gentleman's Agreement in my signature. Problems coming from the players and/or the DM are best dealt with working with them instead of trying to engineer a fix. If you close off X then they'll switch to Y and nothing will really change.

[YouLostMe]

Just wanted to add that metamagic spell trigger won't work at all if wands are banned, since elder wands are command word activated.