How to build a Min Max Pacifism PC

[faeryn]

Your logic is terrible and fails to take into account how badly-edited this book is. By the logic you're using, it's fine to set up a delayed fireball trap after taking Vow of Peace, because you aren't responsible, the monster is--it walked into it! You can be a villain--it's only if you attack that you're doing something wrong, so clearly giving all your minions explosive collars that kill them if they disobey you wouldn't break a Vow of Peace.

You cast the spell; you're the one who causes the damage. The monster isn't 'hitting itself', nor would any allies that forget. You can't cast a spell that causes 20d6 damage and act like you aren't responsible because something else is totally unaware of the conditions of the spell.

Hiding behind 'they wrote the book so clearly it should work with these things' gives you Apostles of Peace who have Vow of Poverty but can own expensive magical items, can cast spells that deal huge damage even though they've vowed to not... yeah, the class is a mess. Wizard is about as far from infallible as you can get: errata exists for a reason.

Basically: Apostle of Peace shouldn't have End to Strife. It doesn't fit with the whole 'do no harm' principle of the class. 70 damage per attack doesn't fit with being a pacifist. Enough damage to make chunky salsa out of a group of angry farmers does not belong near Vow of Peace.

I agree... the logic he's using to justify End to Strife is flawed and the spell should break his Vow of Peace... However that is only IFF he chooses Lethal damage when casting the spell. The spell does state that "The caster decides whether the spell deals lethal or nonlethal damage but cannot change her mind once the spell is cast."

also...

i still want to do as much arcane damage as possible but i cant see what builds or classes are recommended at this point

You took a VOW OF PEACE! Yet you "want to do as much arcane damage as possible" I think someone might be a little confused as to what they can actually do with a Vow of Peace...

[Raineh Daze]

You may not target them with death effects, disintegrate, or other spells that have the immediate potential to cause death or great harm. You also may not use nondamaging spells to incapacitate or weaken living foes so that your allies can kill them--if you incapacitate a foe, you must take him prisoner.

Massive Damage rules. End to Strife sets those off. Not to mention the radius-of-doom causing enemies to just drop out of the sky unconscious.

[movieholic1977]

one of my favorite pieces of logic has always been to notice if people get vehemently upset over something and continue to argue that whatever it is must be wrong...curiosity inside us wants to know why...comparing this to Apostle of Peace and you have a super damage dealing, but also super lackadaisical character whose very pre-requisites ( the vows ).... who very flavor text ( vow of peace but damage dealing spells )...... whose everything is literally a contradiction

is it a legal character? i guess so......
is it a overpowered ?......i am pretty sure lots of people can attest to this....

it is literally the definition of overpowered plus a side bonus of massive contradictions....which is ironic what i originally asked for

so in order to build a build around it must be difficult so how about we start with an optimized cleric and just add this later if the DM is ok with it

its like asking.....hey DM can i play 1 level of ( apostle )....i know mine will say ok.....even though they have no idea how frickin buh-roken it is.....

so whats a good character who is a cleric or some class that helps out the party best?

or whats an optimized apostle of peace?

thanks though for the lively discussion it was an interesting...wait what? really? ok thats just wow ummm okay

 
 

[Raineh Daze]

It's a legal character to build, but the instant you use certain class features, you lose the pre-requisites and thus the class features. Dead feat slots.

An optimised Apostle of Peace is one that:
A) Has full party buy-in, so people know not to kill, to try other tactics first, and to take prisoners. Not a party that has this thrust upon them and has to deal with the pacification aura.
B) Plays a support role. Great, you've got a lot of defensive bonuses from vows--but you can't attack. If the negotiating or stealth option doesn't work, buffing is pretty much all you're made for. Maybe battlefield control stuff, but with a divine spell list, I doubt there's as much of that available.

[linklord231]

I thought only certain PrCs lost their class features if you no longer meet the prerequisites (namely, the ones in Complete Warrior).  Otherwise you get things like the Dragon Disciple Paradox. 

Per Book of Exalted Deeds, "The following text applies to every prestige class in this chapter: A character who ceases to be of good alignment or who willfully commits an evil act loses all special abilities and spells acquired in this prestige class, and may not gain new levels in that class. She may regain her abilities if she atones for her violations (see Sin and Atonement in Chapter 1)."  He would lose his class features if he committed an Evil act, but not for breaking his Vow.  In fact, breaking his Vow of Poverty is the only way he can benefit from the Weapons and Armor Proficiency class feature. 

[Raineh Daze]

Huh, I thought it was a more general ruling than CW.

It still leaves you with, essentially, a diluted cleric who's wasted at least two feats--and if you break vow of poverty that's going to kick off a chain reaction where, if you picked up the other vows through its bonus feats, you lose the other two by default.

And I'd rule it an Evil act to swear a vow of pacifism, then give yourself an aura of massive damage. Especially so if you maximised and persisted it somehow. 80' 120 damage radius if someone does anything violent? Walk through a town and you're KOing people by the dozen. Hell, casting a spell that is 'if you hit someone, as much pain as if I kicked you off a cliff!' is just... not Good at all. Disproportionate, much? >_>

[Tonymitsu]

is it a overpowered ?......i am pretty sure lots of people can attest to this....

There is nothing overpowered about a character designed to specialize in non-lethal damage.  You will get trampled by every single construct, troll, and undead you face.

And no, End to Strife will not help you against golems because it allows SR, which means they are immune to it.
It will not help you against any caster with half a working brain because they will just sling spells at you from outside the range.  Or summon critters and order them to suicide run you (the spell explicitly states they don't take the damage until after they make the attack).  Or hire a group of mercenary archers to fill you full of arrows.

Which, incidentally, is also what I probably would do if I was in a party with you.


This thread breaks the 8th Commandment of Practical Optimization on it's premise.  The author has stated this is his purpose, and doesn't care if he's wrong or not.  There is no further benefit to continuing this discussion.

[movieholic1977]

so i am not allowed to play apostle of peace because....

you do not like the rules of the classes ( like Vow of Peace, Vow of Poverty along with Armor and Weapons )

you do not like the way i worded my question ( you can not be a a divine anything and seek to do maximum damage, you have to play something else otherwise we the board will continue to criticize you for poor selection )

so i get now that this is a hugely overpowered class but i never got heres what you should play or any other ideas

i am sorry that my idea to play an apostle is so horrible and against some rules of conducts err commandments of your but it was just a question that some people can not take seriously

i will go and find some other savant, cleric thread and remember not to post here, i might forget but at least i know i can try even when it feels the whole world is against you

thanks for the life lessons



i

[SolEiji]

*Hands movie an amulet of natural armor.*

Relaxinate.

[Raineh Daze]

... where did the idea that AoP was OP come from, anyway?

[ketaro]

Nobody said Apostle was OP. Cause its not.

Everybody says what you're doing is broken and/or against the intent of the class & feats even if allowed only through annoying technicalities.

[SorO_Lost]

... where did the idea that AoP was OP come from, anyway?

Well no one but... Nice find on breaking vows vs lose AoP's Class Features. Finally, you can use End to Strife.

And it could be optimized for more than just AoP CC. Which is cool, the Class was pretty worthless with all it's restrictions.

[Raineh Daze]

End to Strife is Cleric 9 too, I think. Don't really see anything about it that would prevent, say, an Ur-Priest from using the thing.

[movieholic1977]

End of Strife is on the Apostle of Peace spell list as well as the cleric

Cityscape feats ( favored, special dispensation ) would seem to be a better feat with the numerous complications of the class

For those on a religious note, using a quick "wiki", a dispensation is the exemption from the immediate obligation of law in certain cases. Its object is to modify the hardship often arising from the rigorous application of general laws to particular cases, and its essence is to preserve the law by suspending its operation in such cases.

So you take a real life word, dispensation, then compare / contrast to the feat "special dispensation" which needs favored of course, and you can make an argument against Vow of Peace / Vow of Nonviolence in conjuction with Armored Apostle and non lethal damage applied from End to Strife

So you have a reasonable argument with the use of wordplay

However how can an Ur Priest attain this? What level of Ur Priest is needed...the build method is beyond my experience since you need a non-cleric build to achieve clerical status ( Ur Priest Level + 1/2 of other spellcasting levels to determine clerical status or divine level ) Can anyone post a quickie Ur Priest build for those of us struggling with the concept ?

using 2 flaws, a human, use of the feat "skill beyond your years" to achieve concentration 10 ranks at 6th, you can get apostle of peace at 7th level but is this good or bad

Ur Priest is clearly better, roleplay wise, but pure cleric and its deviations is easier to run

For those that need the feat for reference:
 
Skill Beyond Your Years
Prerequisite: Level 6
Pick a skill. Your max ranks rise from Level+3 to Level +5.

Thoughts?

Human Cleric with 9th level spells would be preferred by 15th level but its a tricky tricky build with lots of variations....thoughts?

[Tonymitsu]

Cityscape feats ( favored, special dispensation ) would seem to be a better feat with the numerous complications of the class

For those on a religious note, using a quick "wiki", a dispensation is the exemption from the immediate obligation of law in certain cases. Its object is to modify the hardship often arising from the rigorous application of general laws to particular cases, and its essence is to preserve the law by suspending its operation in such cases.

So you take a real life word, dispensation, then compare / contrast to the feat "special dispensation" which needs favored of course, and you can make an argument against Vow of Peace / Vow of Nonviolence in conjuction with Armored Apostle and non lethal damage applied from End to Strife

So you have a reasonable argument with the use of wordplay

What in the hell are you even talking about?  There is no possible interpretation of anything relating to any game mechanics of D&D in which any of that makes sense.

No one here is trying to get you to not play Apostle of Peace because it's any kind of "secretly op".
They are trying to stop you from being a giant raging dick to your entire gaming table.
You want to play your way, the rest of the table apparently doesn't, and your response to that is to think, "how can I screw with them?"  You aren't even asking for some sort of reasonable compromise.

Here.  Right here.

Given the above, forcing people to re=think their melee builds with a Pacifistic PC is quite funny and forces them to find ways around the pacifism, especially with spells like "end to strife" persisted 24 hours which says they take 20d6 damage for every attack they make as well as the enemy

That was your second post.  That is you asking, "how can I best take a crap all over the rest of the party's fun?"

You want a life lesson?  Don't be a dick.  Tell them your problem.  If they don't care, get up and leave the game.


Are double 9's possible by level 15?
Probably not.

Are pacifism characters possible?
Yes.  But they suck.  And everyone will hate you.

[Raineh Daze]

You can Concentration 10 at level 7 anyway. That feat just accelerates AoP to level 6.

All I was saying was that an Ur-Priest can also get End to Strife: the spell seems to lack a Good descriptor, and it's on the normal Cleric 9 list.

See above for the issue: I haven't been saying 'don't play this because it's OP', it's because this is the wrong way to go about changing a game.

[movieholic1977]

tricky wording here

on one hand being a dick is screwing with the party

on the other hand, or the way i see it and the way i understand my players is this

i am 37 to their 20's

they always play the same character over and over, they don't change, they are a dm's worst nightmare

they talk when they shouldn't and in part ruin the game

from a 4th edition DM point of view i prefer people to care about the game

the dm is 39 and understands that when they try the game is good but its a game we try to play every 2 weeks....thats the schedule...every 2 weeks we get a game

however we need a backup character in case we dont get to game

so we can have any kind of character from levels 5 to 15

i love clerics

especially since they get guidance of the avatar and divine insight which is + 20 competence added to 5 + caster level insight to any skill check at level 3ish cause they are level 2 cleric spells....this makes clerics the best one shot skill monkeys

given the above i have to somehow convinve you guys that even though end to strife is a clerical spell and has tricky wordplay

its not being a dick to play or cast it

its a 9th level spell that could possible make their characters have to actually think for once

they don't think they just maybe kinda play

its your reactions and posts that make this dick-able

so how can i play a cleric with the apostle of peace feats better or what build benefots cleric and apostle

since the posters hate this class soooo much i know its a challenge so it will be presented which is a double check to see if its allowed

thats all i can do

i will see if this is ok on tuesday 10 14 2014

if not i will update accordingly

and we can go from there

any other buildable stuff i should know

please let me know, like dragon mag stuff, anythign 3.5 ish

thanks

[ketaro]

There is no tricky wording in "You're an old person trying to piss on the youngin's parade."

I.e.; A dick move.

Why does playing D&D have to be 300% about D&D and absolutely nothing else? They clearly use the time to not JUST play D&D but also to hang out as friends. Why don't you want to hang out with friends and play games together?

Best thing you could do is make a character that fits in with what the majority of the party is doing, not trying to force the entire party to conform to your character. It doesn't matter if you achieve your goal of "making them think" (and they're definitely going to be thinking of how much of a dick you're being  ) with this build, you're also gonna achieve a goal of killing the fun that is playing D&D.

[linklord231]

So basically what you're saying is that you having your kind of fun is more important than everyone else having their kind of fun. 

Apostle of Peace has very little to do with it; we'd have the same objections if you wanted to play a Frenzied Berserker in a game focusing on character drama or a Paladin in a game about being a pirate. 

[movieholic1977]

So basically what you're saying is that you just wanna be a dick and comment over nothing and refuse to help build a simple cleric with the addition of apostle of peace

i wish there was a how to be a dick handbook but theres not

i wish people would read the apostle spell list and see that at 9th level their spells are good but on par with everyone elses

anyone else?