TWF Rogue Build

[Necrosnoop110]

Helping a friend out, anyone got any suggestions for a good TWF melee focused rogue type build?

D&D 3.5 WotC (Most books no Tome of Battle )
44 point buy
Half-Orc (Must)
No Spellcasting or psionics (Must)
TWF (Must)
Simple but effective builds would work best for him - he does not want a "thief" he wants a combat rogue that can mix it up but has some skills when needed.   

Was thinking something like
Rogue 3/Fighter 2/ Swashbuckler 15
+19BAB, +9d6 Sneak Attk, Hit Points 3d6 + 17d10 (w/Daring Outlaw feat)

Suggestions?

Thanks,
Necro   

[Vorpal_Bunny]

No tome of blood, or no tome of battle?...

If there is tome of battle available, a Swordsage with the appropriate Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw disciplines, Shadow Blade and Weapon Finesse would do this quite well.

VB

[Necrosnoop110]

Sorry meant no Tome of Battle

[phaedrusxy]

Half-orc paragon gives Rage with any alignment. Monk with Carmendine Monk feat gives Int to AC unarmed. And of course Swashbuckler 3 gives Int to damage. You might look at combining those elements with rogue, and add Craven for more SA damage of course. The monk will give you flurry of blows and a few other things.

[Jackinthegreen]

I assume no Dragon Mag then?

Check out the ACF index to see if something jumps out at you.

Does the character have to be standard half-orc, or can variants be used?

What's the relative power level going to be?  If there are clerics and wizards being decently competent then a rogue is unlikely to do much but might get somewhere with decent UMD checks and such.

Swashbuckler past 5 or so tends to be pretty poor.  Its class abilities are not powerful enough for the levels they come at.  Daring Outlaw can help, but sometimes it's just not enough.

TWF with kusari-gama could help due to the reach + adjacent.

[Necrosnoop110]

I assume no Dragon Mag then?

Check out the ACF index to see if something jumps out at you.

Does the character have to be standard half-orc, or can variants be used?

What's the relative power level going to be?  If there are clerics and wizards being decently competent then a rogue is unlikely to do much but might get somewhere with decent UMD checks and such.

Swashbuckler past 5 or so tends to be pretty poor.  Its class abilities are not powerful enough for the levels they come at.  Daring Outlaw can help, but sometimes it's just not enough.

TWF with kusari-gama could help due to the reach + adjacent.

No Dragon, no ACFs. But thanks. Standard half-orc. Power level is moderate nobody is over the top. I even went Gish instead of my usual Telepath or wizard builds. Cannot get too complicated or he simply won't play it. Any suggestions after Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Swashbuckler 5. He wants simple, fun, and strong.

Thanks,
Necro

[Solo]

No more than 3 levels of Swashbuckler.

[DancingFish]

No more than 3 levels of Swashbuckler.

In a Daring Outlaw? Rogue3/Swash17 is kinda THE build.

@OP: You may want the standard Barbarian1 dip for Pounce and WhirlFrenzy.

[Rebel7284]

Rogue/Swashbuckler works.

You can also dip Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem Barbarian 1 in any fighting build and make it better.

Here is a fun build in which you start as monk, but ultimately abandon that path for the furious path of your ancestors!

Rogue 1/Monk 2/Fighter 1/Barbarian 1/Swashbuckler 15

For Monk, go Invisible Fist for the ability to become invisible every 3 rounds.  Very useful for sneak attacking!
For Fighter, trade the bonus feat for sneak attack so you can qualify for swashbuckler easier .  You can also use Hit and Run fighter from Drow of the Underdark to add Dex to Damage vs. flat footed opponents.

Feats to take:
Craven - More sneak attack damage is good.
Darkstalker - Eventually you will want to sneak up on creatures with blindsight/blindsense.
Ambush feats - Debuffing can be super effective.

[sambojin]

Fighter 1/ Rogue x

High dex character (44pt buy, it can have Str, Dex and Con).

Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Chain, from Oriental Adventures), Combat Reflexes for lvl 1 feats. Max tumble as soon as you start rogue'ing, maybe bluff too as you level. TWF at lvl 3.

Really simple, all PHB (other than the chain weapon). At least he won't have to go flicking through books all the time. Threaten all the squares, make AoO against everything, flank everything, SA everything, trip everything. Disarm some things. Fight with two weapons when you want to. Feint a bit. RP a few bluffs in non-combat sections if necessary.

Can be made a lot more powerful with different dips, but it's a combat rogue on easy mode from level 2 onward, and a TWF one from lvl 3. Diverse enough that he won't get bored immediately, but nice simple combat rules, all in one book. Can RP a tiny bit if necessary. Maybe give him a shortbow as well, for ranged SA experience.

Maybe chuck on penetrating strike when you can for anti-undead. Or allow 1 ACF of Death's Ruin (lose trapsense, gain 1/2 SA vs undead, Complete Champion p51). He'll probably be pretty proficient at normal fighting anyway though.

[Jackinthegreen]

Hey everyone, he specifically said ACFs are not on the table.  So pouncewhirl barbarian is not allowed.

As far as swashbuckler goes, the extra BAB (and hit points, and Fort saves) from it is alright but going past 4 or 5 is rarely recommended due to the abysmal class features.  8th level is the absolute latest to go if flanking is a reasonable option.  Everything after that can be done much earlier (like Lucky is had by some clerics at level 1 from a domain) or even done better by equipment (such as the Wounding Critical ability being entirely outclassed by the Wounding weapon enhancement).  Acrobatic Charge can be replaced with some skill tricks or even the regular charge rules since regular charges do allow for jumps in them.  Slippery Mind is something the rogue can get either through class features or done better through equipment.  Acrobatic Skill Mastery is likewise done better by a rogue.

Also, the Vexing Flanker feat in Player's Handbook 2 gives an extra +2 bonus to flanks which is exactly what the Improved Flanking swashbuckler ability does.  Sure it requires Combat Reflexes to take, but that's a worthwhile feat anyway.

If you're going to do a Daring Outlaw build then the absolute furthest to go is Swash 8 / Rogue 12.  That gets you BAB 17, improved flanking, and one rogue Special Ability.  Better to do is Swash 4 / Rogue 16 because that's BAB 16 and gets three rogue Special Abilities.

Alternately, Rogue 13, Fighter 3, Swashbuckler 4 would be good.  You'd only lose out on 1 special ability, 1d6 SA, and the skill points (and the +1 Trapsense but that's only worth an aside) while gaining two feats, better hitpoints, and a higher Fort save.

[sambojin]

Yeah, the ACF was just an option in mine, there's a feat to cover it anyway.

But just to push the "what's allowed" thing, bumping Wis up to 14 during stat buy and taking a level of Psychic Warrior along the way is cool. Not for the power. For the feat "Up the Walls". Never learn or use the power. But a wall running combat rogue is great. Focus self at the end of every encounter, 90% of movement problems just went away for the next encounter. You can't use your 1PP or you won't be able to focus yourself again. So it's sort of "No Psionics", it's just for a really cool feat.

Or you could just say to hell with it and take Expansion for a power. Because of the freaky stuff that happens with Combat Reflexes and a Chain with large reach. Just for an end of day shits'n'giggles wrap-up power

Look at it as barbarian Rage for real men. When you press the berserk button, you don't mess around. Take another level in Psychic Warrior later if you want more kicking of posterior to occur. Even newby players or people looking for an auto or 4th ed. experience understand "Big red button, once a day". Tell him to buy a low level cognizance crystal for easily removable berserk mode if it gets out of hand/he wants to be super combat rogue'y but wants more chain-crack.

[sambojin]

So, ummm...

Lots of Dex, quite a bit of Str, 14 Wis, maybe 12 Int (skillz).

Rogue 1: Combat Reflexes. Lots of skills. Max Tumble, Bluff, skill monkey.
You can hit stuff that tries to go around you. You can try and go around them as well. But you can stab them in the back of the head.

Fighter 1: Bonus Feat - Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Chain). Whatever skill.
You found some chain with some lead on the end. You have found your calling in life. It is to hit things with this chain, in the most painful yet safe-to-yourself way possible. You've probably also got a shortbow, but that's just a tool. The chain is where it's at

Rogue 2: TWF feat! More Tumble/Bluff and other stuff.
1d6 SA with easy flanking, but also hit-moving-things response to DM's actions. Or hit stuff twice. You choose.

Rogue 3: Keep up tumble and bluff. Max other skills or point around stuff.
2d6 reached melee SA, which is great. Gets even better next level (big better). +Dex attribute gain, or whatever a 44pt buy just managed to miss out on. How?

Psychic Warrior 1: Up the Walls feat. Expansion power.
Awesome rogue at the beginning of every encounter, and awesome fighter with tons of options once a day for a minute, but no more wall walkies afterwards until you've had a nap. Big red button, but no easy flank afterwards. 20' range with a combat reflexes, trip'y, disarm'y Chain is good when you're big. Walk up walls is better.

Rogue 4->Lots of levels: Skill stuff, whatever. Psionic Talent feat at character level 6 (now). Penetrating strike at 10th (SRD or CC p51). Pretty simple feat.
Now the big berserk button is press-able a couple of times a day, and you can still wall walk after it. Buy cognizance crystals for more beserk button. Stay focused. Maybe introduce him to the concept of Shards as an item, just so he can do other rogue stuff well, but at a price.

Pretty easy, pretty cool, easy-mode rogue. Do stuff when rogue, go sick when big. Done! 6 levels of awesome, 1 feat/power/weapon/class level that's not PHB/SRD original. Easy to learn, easy to learn other stuff later, fairly boots backside in everything rogue'ish.

Edit: Duh. Rogue skills first x 4. Gives a more methodical progression to the awesome anyway, but with more skillz.