Author Topic: Druid help  (Read 12374 times)

Offline xanth

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Druid help
« on: December 11, 2014, 11:27:38 PM »
Okay this is going to be a lot of questions and I thank you in advance for reading and any help you can give. I recently joined a 3.5 group using a pre made character and have finally started to create my own to be worked into the campaign soon. I've decided to go with a druid and my DM has made a few tweaks to the class. Wild shape for me will be a swift action and not restricted to the /times per day restriction. However I won't be able to use the natural spell feat. In tandem I will not be using summon nature's companion or animal companion( as it will be a massive cluster with our group and i'm fairly new. I'm okay with all these changes as i'll be shaping and casting spells which is what i'm content with. Where i'm looking for advice is on best shapes to focus on, as well as what feats to grab. I'll be starting at level 10. Thanks for any help!
« Last Edit: December 11, 2014, 11:55:40 PM by xanth »

Offline Reshy

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Re: Druid help
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2014, 12:31:26 AM »
Remember you heal each time you wildshape, take Dukar Hand Coral to double this rate.  In essence you have fast healing of twice your hit dice.  Since you have only the choice between casting spells or biting face, consider picking up some feats that give you the ability to cast still.  Such as Nilshai (Unapproachable East) which is known for giving you an extra standard action, flying, and speaking and able to cast as a sorcerer (you don't get that but still).  This means you can have your cake and eat it.


Take the aberration Blood (I prefer the flexible limbs for +2 to grapples, because being grappled sucks) and then aberration wild shape. 


Dragon Wild Shape works also, as dragons are naturally casters, however you can't do this till level 12 and generally will be inferior to your Nilshai or Elder Brain forms.


If your DM says no that still doesn't count because of the power of fiat, consider focusing on getting your buffs to last all day long.  Maybe take the Wild Reaper variant and get turning at level 12, or planar shepard and turn into a planetar or pit fiend (depending on your campaign's theme).


If possible you might want to take the fangshield substitution to get hands in whatever wildshape form you take.



You can also take Frozen Wildshape and Assume Supernatural Ability/Enhanced Wildshape to get a 12 headed cryo-hydra with up to 24 bites due to it's head splitting ability.  Good for facebiting, if nothing else.  Plus more fast healing!
« Last Edit: December 12, 2014, 12:37:25 AM by Reshy »
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Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook

Offline Keldar

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Re: Druid help
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2014, 03:44:09 AM »
Have you taken a look at this guide?  Plenty of useful information.

The Wild Shape you are describing sounds awfully like the Shape shift variant from PHB2.  If it is, you don't need to know anything about what to turn into as you get some very specific abilities outlined in that option.  It dramatically changes any advice we can give, check in with your DM.  For starters, it negates everything Reshy said!

Even with that, Druid is a very strong class and you really don't need to worry about anything except having decent Wisdom and Constitution.  Even if you take lemons as feats you'll still do well.

It would also help if we knew what general sorts of characters the other players are going for, Druid can fill plenty of roles.  Knowing what will be needed will impact what feats you might take.

Offline JohnnyMayHymn

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Re: Druid help
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2014, 08:31:55 AM »
+1 Planar Shepherd you can get some nice outsider, elemental and magical beast forms (you even get to use templates that turn things into magical beasts)

Good luck getting it approved though, ol' PS has a reputation.  Here's what I would do: offer to give up the planar bubble ability, b/c that's the really broken part.
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Offline Reshy

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Re: Druid help
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2014, 04:06:19 PM »
Have you taken a look at this guide?  Plenty of useful information.

The Wild Shape you are describing sounds awfully like the Shape shift variant from PHB2.  If it is, you don't need to know anything about what to turn into as you get some very specific abilities outlined in that option.  It dramatically changes any advice we can give, check in with your DM.  For starters, it negates everything Reshy said!

Even with that, Druid is a very strong class and you really don't need to worry about anything except having decent Wisdom and Constitution.  Even if you take lemons as feats you'll still do well.

It would also help if we knew what general sorts of characters the other players are going for, Druid can fill plenty of roles.  Knowing what will be needed will impact what feats you might take.


The OP didn't say it was Shapeshift, so please give answers that pertain to what they ask.


Druid is a very powerful class, honestly nothing in Wildshape or Alternate Form says you lose your innate casting ability, in fact:

"The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components."


You could turn into a bat and give yourself a Pearl of Common Speech (600gp) and you immediately know and can speak that regardless of what form you are in.  So that covers Verbal Components, furthermore while Expensive you have an item in Savage Species called 'Gloves of Man' (40k) which grant you hands for somatic components.  So congrats, you can now cast regardless of what form you assume.

If you don't have a lot of money for those gloves, consider Casting Aspect of the Wolf on yourself to make yourself the animal type, then cast an Empowered/Maximized Awaken spell on yourself.  Your int changes based on how you roll, but you gain the Magical Beast Subtype permanently along with the benefits of that type (Darkvision, Low-Light Vision, immunity to Animal/Humanoid targeted spells) and qualify for Fangshield Substitution regardless of your initial race or type which at level 5 grants you the ability to have fully-functional hands regardless of your assumed form.


If that's too complex consider picking up this feat from Savage Species:

SURROGATE SPELLCASTING [MONSTROUS]
You use substitute verbal and somatic components when casting spells.
Prerequisite: Wis 13, nonhumanoid or nonhumanlike form.
Benefit: You complete the verbal and somatic components of spells by substituting vocalizations and gestures appropriate to your shape. You must still have suitable appendages and vocal organs. For example, a giant eagle could substitute screeches and waves of its talons for the normal verbal and somatic components of a spell. You can use any material component or focus that you can hold. This feat does not permit the use of magic items by a creature whose form could not ordinarily use them, and you do not gain the ability to speak if you cannot already.


+1 Planar Shepherd you can get some nice outsider, elemental and magical beast forms (you even get to use templates that turn things into magical beasts)

Good luck getting it approved though, ol' PS has a reputation.  Here's what I would do: offer to give up the planar bubble ability, b/c that's the really broken part.


Planar Shepard is only broken when you use it on a Plane which has a weird time-effect.  Which is the Far Realm and the Realm of Dreams.  If you pick a more sane place, say Baator or Celestia; you get a good pile of forms and a not-cheesy bubble area.  Also worth noting that sorcerers/wizards can already bubble those mentioned planes without a prestige class so it's pretty moot.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2014, 04:19:32 PM by Reshy »
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Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook

Offline wotmaniac

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Re: Druid help
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2014, 04:21:47 PM »
The OP didn't say it was Shapeshift, so please give answers that pertain to what they ask.
Except that what he described is practically verbatim of the PH2 Shapeshifter variant (well, except for that part about no SNA ... but even that is on the same page)


@ OP
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Offline Keldar

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Re: Druid help
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2014, 05:03:03 PM »

The OP didn't say it was Shapeshift, so please give answers that pertain to what they ask.

  :rolleyes
He paraphrased the opening paragraphs of the ACF, the only thing missing was the limited effects of the forms.  The two abilities are so far apart that advice for one does not apply to the other.  This incredibly pertinent information. 

So please stop dictating how other people respond to someone else's question.  It isn't even remotely your business.

Offline Reshy

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Re: Druid help
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2014, 10:52:30 PM »
Never heard of it before, honestly.  If it's that ACF, I'd probably play a wildshape ranger instead.
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Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Druid help
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2014, 11:20:50 PM »
Never heard of it before, honestly.  If it's that ACF, I'd probably play a wildshape ranger instead.

All ACFs not in Dragon Mag (as far as I know) can bee looked at here.  All Dragon Mag ones can be looked at here.

Go nuts looking through them if that's your fancy.

This goes for anyone else here too including the OP.  If the animal companion won't be used then there are a few ACFs that replace it for something else.  Druidic Avenger from Unearthed Arcana comes to mind.  It trades away the animal companion and spontaneous SNA casting for fast movement and Rage as a barbarian.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2014, 11:23:52 PM by Jackinthegreen »

Offline Reshy

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Re: Druid help
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2014, 12:35:15 AM »
Never heard of it before, honestly.  If it's that ACF, I'd probably play a wildshape ranger instead.

All ACFs not in Dragon Mag (as far as I know) can bee looked at here.  All Dragon Mag ones can be looked at here.

Go nuts looking through them if that's your fancy.

This goes for anyone else here too including the OP.  If the animal companion won't be used then there are a few ACFs that replace it for something else.  Druidic Avenger from Unearthed Arcana comes to mind.  It trades away the animal companion and spontaneous SNA casting for fast movement and Rage as a barbarian.


You can't use an ACF that another ACF has already taken away I thought?  It just looks like druids are nerfed in this campaign honestly if that's the variant being used.  You may wish to simply putting off your druid for a while till you get a more sane DM.
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Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook

Offline linklord231

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Re: Druid help
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2014, 01:13:06 AM »
It just looks like druids are nerfed in this campaign honestly if that's the variant being used.  You may wish to simply putting off your druid for a while till you get a more sane DM.

I strongly disagree.  Shapeshift druid fixes the ease-of-play issues that a standard druid has, namely figuring out what changes when you Wildshape; a godsend for new players.  It tones down the power level, which is a good thing for experienced players and new players alike.  Shapeshift Druid is the way they should have designed it in the first place.

Now admittedly there are a few changed I'd make in addition:  I'd probably give Shapeshifting a few more utility forms, because right now it's sorely lacking.  I'd give it the Spirit Shaman spellcasting mechanic (but solely Wis instead of Wis/Cha), to make it easier for new players to grok.  I'd let it stack with gear, so that there's even less math to do.  I'd strongly consider giving it back the ability to use Natural Spell or similar.  And I'd give Rangers the full Animal Companion, since they should have had it anyway. 
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Offline Reshy

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Re: Druid help
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2014, 02:10:05 AM »
It just looks like druids are nerfed in this campaign honestly if that's the variant being used.  You may wish to simply putting off your druid for a while till you get a more sane DM.

I strongly disagree.  Shapeshift druid fixes the ease-of-play issues that a standard druid has, namely figuring out what changes when you Wildshape; a godsend for new players.  It tones down the power level, which is a good thing for experienced players and new players alike.  Shapeshift Druid is the way they should have designed it in the first place.

Now admittedly there are a few changed I'd make in addition:  I'd probably give Shapeshifting a few more utility forms, because right now it's sorely lacking.  I'd give it the Spirit Shaman spellcasting mechanic (but solely Wis instead of Wis/Cha), to make it easier for new players to grok.  I'd let it stack with gear, so that there's even less math to do.  I'd strongly consider giving it back the ability to use Natural Spell or similar.  And I'd give Rangers the full Animal Companion, since they should have had it anyway.


If you want to do that as a part of a homebrew thing that's fine, I have the right not to play or put up with it.  I like a smart class that can really be explored in depth, and not something homogenized like 4e.

Shapeshift also is not compatible with wildshape, which hurts a lot of things.
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Offline brujon

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Re: Druid help
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2014, 02:46:03 AM »
Okay this is going to be a lot of questions and I thank you in advance for reading and any help you can give. I recently joined a 3.5 group using a pre made character and have finally started to create my own to be worked into the campaign soon. I've decided to go with a druid and my DM has made a few tweaks to the class. Wild shape for me will be a swift action and not restricted to the /times per day restriction. However I won't be able to use the natural spell feat. In tandem I will not be using summon nature's companion or animal companion( as it will be a massive cluster with our group and i'm fairly new. I'm okay with all these changes as i'll be shaping and casting spells which is what i'm content with. Where i'm looking for advice is on best shapes to focus on, as well as what feats to grab. I'll be starting at level 10. Thanks for any help!

I think in order to properly optimize your character, since you won't be able to be casting while shapeshifted, you need to prioritize what you want to accomplish with your character.

Do you want to be a caster, or do you want to be a fighter? I mean, primarily. You'll still be capable of doing the other thing, just not as well as your main thing.

There are several prestige classes that benefit druid wildshape but sacrifice casting. Others, benefit casting but sacrifice wildshape.

Once you figure out what role you want to fill, it'll be easier to make a build to tailor that specific role.
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Offline linklord231

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Re: Druid help
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2014, 03:11:25 AM »
If you want to do that as a part of a homebrew thing that's fine, I have the right not to play or put up with it.  I like a smart class that can really be explored in depth, and not something homogenized like 4e.

Shapeshift also is not compatible with wildshape, which hurts a lot of things.

Lol I'll call your bullshit on that one.  Homogenized?  Name another class with a shapeshift mechanic, I dare you.  Meanwhile, I can think of at least 1 non-druid base class and prestige class that grant Wildshape, the Wildshape Ranger and Lion of Talisid, just off the top of my head.  And Wildshape is the only thing that makes druids "a smart class that can really be explored in depth"?  Not their 9th level casting, which neither Shapeshift nor my proposed changes take away?  Wildshape certainly gives a breadth of options, but limiting those options in a way that both better balances the class against martial classes and makes a less daunting experience for new players doesn't suddenly make them shallow. 

I'll not deny that Wildshape is a more powerful option than Shapeshift, but I think Shapeshift is a better option for new players and for people who don't want Druids to be 2 tanks and a caster at the same time. 

Regardless, we're getting more than a bit off topic.  To the OP:  What do you want to focus on?  For a Shapeshift druid focused on frontline fighting, I'd suggest looking at the Bite of the WereX line of spells in Spell Compendium.  Rat in particular is a low-level spell that stacks in most ways with your Predator form.  Babau Slime (again from the Spell Compendium) is good if you intend to be the primary tank at low levels.  Entangle is an encounter-ender if your foes don't have ranged weapons and you do.  Produce Flame is pretty neat, especially if you have Power Attack, which you should if you're going the melee route. 

For your perusal:  The Druid Handbook, and the Shapeshifter Druid Handbook
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Offline Reshy

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Re: Druid help
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2014, 03:18:59 PM »
Okay this is going to be a lot of questions and I thank you in advance for reading and any help you can give. I recently joined a 3.5 group using a pre made character and have finally started to create my own to be worked into the campaign soon. I've decided to go with a druid and my DM has made a few tweaks to the class. Wild shape for me will be a swift action and not restricted to the /times per day restriction. However I won't be able to use the natural spell feat. In tandem I will not be using summon nature's companion or animal companion( as it will be a massive cluster with our group and i'm fairly new. I'm okay with all these changes as i'll be shaping and casting spells which is what i'm content with. Where i'm looking for advice is on best shapes to focus on, as well as what feats to grab. I'll be starting at level 10. Thanks for any help!

I think in order to properly optimize your character, since you won't be able to be casting while shapeshifted, you need to prioritize what you want to accomplish with your character.

Do you want to be a caster, or do you want to be a fighter? I mean, primarily. You'll still be capable of doing the other thing, just not as well as your main thing.

There are several prestige classes that benefit druid wildshape but sacrifice casting. Others, benefit casting but sacrifice wildshape.

Once you figure out what role you want to fill, it'll be easier to make a build to tailor that specific role.


The problem is that the shapeshift variant does not count for the purposes of Wild Shape qualification.  You cannot take things like Aberration, Exalted, and Dragon Wild Shapes, furthermore you don't qualify for anything requiring the Wild Shape class feature.  No Planar Shepard for example.  And I don't think you can get Master of Many Forms or Nature's Warrior either.


Honestly I'd probably work on getting a full-casters since all the features you normally lose out on taking weird prestige classes simply do not apply due to your crappy shapeshift power.  Holt Warden, Contemplative, maybe a Green Whisper + Lyrist build.  Maybe squeeze in a level of Sacred Exorcist for DMM shenanigans.



If you want to do that as a part of a homebrew thing that's fine, I have the right not to play or put up with it.  I like a smart class that can really be explored in depth, and not something homogenized like 4e.

Shapeshift also is not compatible with wildshape, which hurts a lot of things.

Lol I'll call your bullshit on that one.  Homogenized?  Name another class with a shapeshift mechanic, I dare you.  Meanwhile, I can think of at least 1 non-druid base class and prestige class that grant Wildshape, the Wildshape Ranger and Lion of Talisid, just off the top of my head.  And Wildshape is the only thing that makes druids "a smart class that can really be explored in depth"?  Not their 9th level casting, which neither Shapeshift nor my proposed changes take away?  Wildshape certainly gives a breadth of options, but limiting those options in a way that both better balances the class against martial classes and makes a less daunting experience for new players doesn't suddenly make them shallow. 

I'll not deny that Wildshape is a more powerful option than Shapeshift, but I think Shapeshift is a better option for new players and for people who don't want Druids to be 2 tanks and a caster at the same time. 

Regardless, we're getting more than a bit off topic.  To the OP:  What do you want to focus on?  For a Shapeshift druid focused on frontline fighting, I'd suggest looking at the Bite of the WereX line of spells in Spell Compendium.  Rat in particular is a low-level spell that stacks in most ways with your Predator form.  Babau Slime (again from the Spell Compendium) is good if you intend to be the primary tank at low levels.  Entangle is an encounter-ender if your foes don't have ranged weapons and you do.  Produce Flame is pretty neat, especially if you have Power Attack, which you should if you're going the melee route. 

For your perusal:  The Druid Handbook, and the Shapeshifter Druid Handbook.


Shapeshift is a dumbed down version of wildshape that's nerfed into the ground and doesn't let you do anything meaningful with.  It's just kind of there.  'Balancing' it more with the martial classes is a joke considering the druid still gets 9ths.  No, it's just a way for the DM to arbitrarily nerf the druid.

Also who tanks in D&D?  That kind of tactic never works.  Damage scales up far quicker than your HP does, as do attack bonuses.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2014, 03:22:43 PM by Reshy »
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https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tvNDnsnzj4dOkkYwxl1iGTeTNnQ5PK3geufSX5DwyYo/edit
Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook

Offline wotmaniac

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Re: Druid help
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2014, 03:52:08 PM »
The long-and-short of it is this: SS-variant druid is flat-out objectively better of the game than Core druid.  Full stop.

But that may be just me being a mere simpleton .... played a druid that got rid of both wildshape and pet, traded it for monk AC + favored enemy and rapid summoning .... had a blast -- still had a lot of room for keeping me interested.  I said it was to give the basket weavers at my table a chance to contribute, but the real secret is that I'm just not smart or sophisticated enough to handle the Core version.   :rolleyes

Offline brujon

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Re: Druid help
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2014, 04:52:33 PM »
Reshy: I'm not sure i understand why you feel so strongly about the SS druid variant, especially because OP didn't specify that was the variant that was used...
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Offline Reshy

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Re: Druid help
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2014, 05:17:01 PM »
Reshy: I'm not sure i understand why you feel so strongly about the SS druid variant, especially because OP didn't specify that was the variant that was used...



As I said, if it's the Shapeshift variant that's very, very bad for druids.  Bad stats, enhancement bonuses, loss of variety, no Wild Shape parity, etc.   It's pretty much incompatible with most of the druid's prestige classes.

I don't know if it is, the OP hasn't specified.  But if it's not than that changes the dynamic a bit making my original post more meaningful.



The long-and-short of it is this: SS-variant druid is flat-out objectively better of the game than Core druid.  Full stop.

But that may be just me being a mere simpleton .... played a druid that got rid of both wildshape and pet, traded it for monk AC + favored enemy and rapid summoning .... had a blast -- still had a lot of room for keeping me interested.  I said it was to give the basket weavers at my table a chance to contribute, but the real secret is that I'm just not smart or sophisticated enough to handle the Core version.   :rolleyes


Grammar check, I can't quite tell what you're saying.

The shapeshift variant is pretty bad, it's on Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook and he says it's probably only beaten by how bad it is by Aspects of Nature.

"Shapeshift (PHB II, 39): This ACF is only good if you’re purposefully trying to nerf your character into submission (which in this case means a low tier one rather than a regular tier one). You lose both your animal companion and wild shape, and get the ability to morph into several preset forms as a swift action. These forms are significantly worse than what you can get with wild shape, particularly because it enhances your stats instead of replacing them, and you can’t even cast spells in these forms using natural spell. The trade isn’t even worth it at first level, when you’re only losing your animal companion, because you’re effectively cutting down your actions per round. This is just a solidly bad ACF. "

You don't even get Ex special attacks like you do with wild shape.
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https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tvNDnsnzj4dOkkYwxl1iGTeTNnQ5PK3geufSX5DwyYo/edit
Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook

Offline wotmaniac

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Re: Druid help
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2014, 05:26:57 PM »

Offline brujon

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Re: Druid help
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2014, 06:16:53 PM »
I get it, it's bad. It doesn't take something away and replaces it with something equally good. It takes away and doesn't give back. I understand that.

But, what can the OP do about it? Their DM has said that's how it will be. I believe instead of going on a tangent here and discussing the merits of OP's DM decision, we should just focus on making the best out of it, don't we?

Like you said, SS variant can be incompatible with certain prestige classes. That's something for the OP to take up with his DM and see if there's anything that can be done about that.

If there isn't, and he still wants to own face, he could go for a summoning build.
"All the pride and pleasure of the world, mirrored in the dull consciousness of a fool, are poor indeed compared with the imagination of Cervantes writing his Don Quixote in a miserable prison" - Schopenhauer, Aphorisms: The Wisdom of Life