Maxing Rogue sneak (dex)

[Dr.Manhattan]

I am gonna do a rogue with maxed out dex to be the sneakiest motherfucker around.
Found a template
Special Qualities: A dark creature retains all the special qualities of the base creature and also gains the following.

Darkvision 60 ft.
Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): Use the Hide skill even while being observed (except in natural daylight, the area of a daylight spell, or a similar effect).
Resistance to cold 10.
Superior low-light vision.
Skills: Same as the base creature, plus Hide +8 and Move Silently +6.
+1 LA
Now, i want to use this and another template that is +1 or race with +1 to get a ridic dex.
I will use incarnate construct on this aswell. Taking me to -2 in LA so everything applied before that will be useless. So all cool racial abilities will be gone, but not the attribute bonus. Although all templates after that will work fine as for abilities.

[Gazzien]

Why are you using Dark Creature together with Incarnate Construct? You lose all the benefits of Dark when you apply Incarnate. (Except maybe the skill bonuses, it's been a while since I mussed around with templates)

[SorO_Lost]

The Dark Template is out of Tome of Magic, which also contains a Collar of Umbral Metamorphsis. For 10k you can buy access to the Template for 10 minutes per day and 22k for all day.

You should also use the Whisper Gnome Race out of Races of Stone, or if you cannot Core's Forest Gnome who has the same bonuses abit partially limited to natural environments. For Sneak Attack it's self, look under Rogue.

[Dr.Manhattan]

Why are you using Dark Creature together with Incarnate Construct? You lose all the benefits of Dark when you apply Incarnate. (Except maybe the skill bonuses, it's been a while since I mussed around with templates)

Beacuse if i apply incarnate first, i will keep all the stuff from Dark template

The Dark Template is out of Tome of Magic, which also contains a Collar of Umbral Metamorphsis. For 10k you can buy access to the Template for 10 minutes per day and 22k for all day.

You should also use the Whisper Gnome Race out of Races of Stone, or if you cannot Core's Forest Gnome who has the same bonuses abit partially limited to natural environments. For Sneak Attack it's self, look under Rogue.

That could work, but not everything is allowed by the gm. I will check but i still need high dex race. Whisper gnome will loose everything when i take incarnate. I will aply like this: RACE - INCARNATE - TEMPLATE1 - TEMPLATE2

[ketaro]

Incarnate Construct can only be applied to Constructs.

Gaining a template that has a negative LA adjustment, like Incarnate Construct's -2 LA, does not allow you to 'bank' that negative LA to use for countering the +LAs of templates taken afterwards. Your LA is always a minimum of zero.

Edit: Be a Catfolk (Complete Adventurer). Aquire Winged Template (Savage Species). Be a flying cat. Have a +8 bonus to Dex with only a +3 LA total. Acquire Umbral Collar thing mentioned earlier (Tome of Magic) for 22k for permanently on Dark Creature Template.

Of course there's no doubt better things, but how many books do you want to be attacked with when you come to your DM with a mimmax monster? 

[Dr.Manhattan]

I can handle ALOT of books, a min/max rogue is generally not too hard to handle so most of my gm:s wont be too angry if i do that ^^
Maybe i should change this to a min/max thread about rogues?

[ketaro]

Well that was just a personal opinion. You also completely avoided responding to the actual ontopic stuff I said 
Especially the part where you can't be an Incarnate Construct without being a Construct first and even if Warforged count, they have no racial dex bonus so that's a waste. Almost no constructs have a bonus to dex, and a rare one that might is going to no doubt not be a playable race, or have too many Racial HD or LA to get by with 

Catfolk is likely one of the best and cheapest ways to get a huge racial bonus to Dex with a base pc race. *shrugs*
Winged is incredibly cheap too for another huge boost to Dex, and flight maneuverability based on Dex, which will no doubt be huge so hello Perfect fly speed. The fly speed is also based on base speed, either double or as base+20 fly speed which Catfolk already have a higher than normal base speed so yay~

That Umbral collar thing as the cherry on top. Big flying black cat hiding in plain sight in the middle of the sky on a clear sunny day. Boom boom~ What is this I dunno.

[Dr.Manhattan]

The minum 0 is not enforced by almost any gm:s i have played with, its like leadership is almost always banned.
I can go around the construct thing aswell.
Flying does not do anything for me. I just want to boost dex to hell, there is a dex construct, although with a hefty penalty i am just aiming for high dex. Whisper gnome aswell does nothing for me. Catfolk might be usefull, but for +1 La im sure there is better then +4 dex.
Hide in plain sight does not work without clouds in the sky on a sunny day....

[faeryn]

considering your title... is your actual goal a high dex bonus, or is it a high bonus to hide & movesilently for sneaking around?

If it's the latter then you'll want to look at some things more than just racial bonuses... for example, the armor properties of Greater Shadow (+15 Hide) & Greater Silent Moves (+15 Move Silently) for only ~34k each

There's a nice little spell (if you can find some way to get it applied to you) called Know the Shadows that grants a +20 bonus to hide when near shadowy areas, along with some other benefits.

Then there's a multitude of magic items that provide small bonus to hide &/or move silent:
Mantle of the Predator: +5 Hide & Move Silent
Rogue's Vest: +2 Hide & Move Silent
Bracers of the Hunter: +5 Hide
...
just to name a few...

And my favorites for maximizing your ability to sneak:
Ring of the Darkhidden - invisible to darkvision
Darkstalker - undetectable to scent, tremorsense, blidesight, etc without rolling spot/listen against the higher DC



I've got a Spellthief/Illusionist in a current camapaign that has a hide check of 77 (97 in shadows) & movesilent of 74... using the bonuses listed above...

also for a +1LA you really won't get much better than +4 dex... that's all I've got on my character from racials (with a +1LA) and she's near impossible to find once she rolls hide...

[Jackinthegreen]

There are a few LA 0 races that have +6 Dex.  The Jermlaine in Monster Manual 2 was given an LA of 0 in the 3.5 Accessory Update Booklet.  Considering it's tiny, has a 40 foot move speed, and has rogue as its favored class...  Yeah, they're a bit nuts.

[Debatra]

Remember that +X to Dexterity is only an effective +(X/2) to Hide and Move Silently. You're generally better off with a race that has bonuses to those skills instead.

[sambojin]

Your basic Wand of Inspiration (the bard spell) gives you a bit of a plus to any skill you could care to name. Can go from very cheap, to godawful expensive, depending on how big of a bonus you want (1/2 CL from memory). Very versatile.

Ioun stones as well perhaps? I think there were dexxy ones.

Not good per-say, but tying all your casting stats to dex isn't bad with an UurKrau Illumian from Races of Destiny. +2 on dex skill checks, +2CL, everything spellcasting tied to dex, but only good if you multiclass. Slap some templates over the top, since they're a +0 LA race  (winged for sure, then something else). Qualifies for Humanoid (Human) things as well.

[muktidata]

NO ONE (and I mean NO ONE) in the min-max community reads the description of Incarnate Construct fully. In order to become one, you need someone to cast the Incarnate Construct spell on you. That is a 9th level spell.

Assuming you're not going to cast it on yourself, you need:

1) The heart of a humanoid that has been dead less than 8 hours.

2) 25,000g to pay for the XP lost to cast the spell (5*Xp Lost).

3) 1,530g to pay for the normal costs of the spell (CL*Spell Level).

If you're starting at level 20 and get to make up your background, that's not too big of a problem. If you're starting at level 8, your starting wealth is 470g. If you're starting the game earlier than this, you can't even be an incarnate construct.

[sambojin]

So, not an incarnate template then?

Winged, dark Jermlaine it is then.

Unless you need something else.

(templates are bloody stupid anyway. A broken thing that's in a broken system that's completely broken beyond questions. There's not even many reasons to ask questions in 3.5 anymore. There's always a bloody answer.)


note: Bonus points on preparing an immediate or instant reaction that will kill said spell caster for "incarnating" said construct form. After spell is complete, yet in the same round. Only counts if you can do a time-skip and use their heart as an ingredient for the spell.
Unfortunately, doable.
/3.5 stuff.

[SorO_Lost]

NO ONE (and I mean NO ONE) in the min-max community reads the description of Incarnate Construct fully. In order to become one, you need someone to cast the Incarnate Construct spell on you. That is a 9th level spell.

I never read what I don't use. *cough* I mean, I like the cut of your jib.

[sambojin]

Rage!

(click to show/hide)

Kind of why I like 5th right now. There's a basic structure and rules and fun ways of pushing the boundaries.

But I'm not a librarian that says "go crazy, here's the books you wanted". There's basic rules. For a player's headspace or DM on the game called DnD.

Easy enough. 3.5 is honestly a catalogue of f'you to both a player and a DM. Even when it's plain and simple. Core has some weird stuff, OP or traps. But core? Easy.

And it isn't. Neither is PF. Too many books. That are "kind of Core". Only half a dozen or so. Maybe the full dozen. Just enough to get you by. Online or not. Just chuck together whatever, there is seriously no way that it's not legit. Because it is.

I'll crunch dumb ideas in 5th, because 3.5 and PF have only subservient librarians, clerks and IT database guys, not thinkers. All are dumb lookups to a referencing system that has never really been needed, and has never truly existed. Why not do the search for "anything"? 3.5 has you covered. Somewhere, in some book or article.

Because it's stupid to crunch numbers that hard in a role playing game. Your DM WILL kill you, regardless of stats, if you can't RP a damn.

[TiaC]

Rage!

(click to show/hide)

Kind of why I like 5th right now. There's a basic structure and rules and fun ways of pushing the boundaries.

But I'm not a librarian that says "go crazy, here's the books you wanted". There's basic rules. For a player's headspace or DM on the game called DnD.

Easy enough. 3.5 is honestly a catalogue of f'you to both a player and a DM. Even when it's plain and simple. Core has some weird stuff, OP or traps. But core? Easy.

And it isn't. Neither is PF. Too many books. That are "kind of Core". Only half a dozen or so. Maybe the full dozen. Just enough to get you by. Online or not. Just chuck together whatever, there is seriously no way that it's not legit. Because it is.

I'll crunch dumb ideas in 5th, because 3.5 and PF have only subservient librarians, clerks and IT database guys, not thinkers. All are dumb lookups to a referencing system that has never really been needed, and has never truly existed. Why not do the search for "anything"? 3.5 has you covered. Somewhere, in some book or article.

Because it's stupid to crunch numbers that hard in a role playing game. Your DM WILL kill you, regardless of stats, if you can't RP a damn.

Yes, yes, your temper tantrum is appreciated. Have fun in your system where a random commoner will often beat you at things you're trained in.