Author Topic: Remmanon  (Read 6596 times)

Offline ~Corvus~

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Remmanon
« on: December 17, 2015, 05:53:52 PM »
Remmanon

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Restrictions: The Remmanon is a being of dissonance and personifies the qualities of jealousy, greed, and lust. Nearly all Remmanon are Lawful Evil, but they could be Neutral Evil, Chaotic Evil, or even Lawful Neutral.


Level
Base
Attack Bonus
Fort
Save
Ref
Save
Will
Save

Special
Ability Score
Increase
1st+0+2+2+2Infernal Body, Detect Thoughts, Deception, Hellfire Touch+1 int/wis/cha
2nd+1+3+3+3Charm 3/day, Control Emotions, Invest Object+1 Con
3rd+1+3+3+3Disguise Self 1/day/HD, Suggestion+1 int/wis/cha
4th+2+4+4+4Extreme Comfort, Summon Fiends II+1 dex
5th+2+4+4+4Effortless Thoughts, To the Skies, Scrying 3/day+1 int/wis/cha
6th+3+5+5+5Spell Resistance, Alter Self 3/day, Summon Fiends III+1 Con
7th+3+5+5+5Invest Favor, Telepathy+1 int/wis/cha
8th+4+6+6+6Devil's Tongue, Summon Fiends IV+1 dex
9th+4+6+6+6Alter Form+1 int/wis/cha
10th+5+7+7+7Pierce Resistance, Summon Fiends V+1 Con
11th+5+7+7+7Greater Scrying, Insidious Aura+1 int/wis/cha
12th+6/+1+8+8+8To the Skies (perfect), Summon Fiends VI+1 dex
13th+6/+1+8+8+8Greater Teleport 3/day+1 int/wis/cha
14th+7/+2+9+9+9Summon Fiends VII, Improved Summoning+1 Con
15th+7/+2+9+9+9Profane Power, Quicken Teleport+1 int/wis/cha
Skills: Bluff (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (each taken separately) (Arcana) (nobility and Royalty) (Religion) (The Planes) (Psionics) (Int), Move Silently (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Use Magic Device (Cha), Use Psionic Device (Cha), Use Rope (Dex)
Skill Points equal to 6+Int skills (*4 at 1st level for 3.5)

Infernal Body
The Remmanon is an outsider with the Devil subtype. It has the following characteristics:
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« Last Edit: June 10, 2019, 04:19:06 PM by ~Corvus~ »
Quote from: HuskyBoi
I just need a minute to appreciate the words 'goliath lamp-post sneak attack'. That's a thing of beauty, right there.

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Offline oslecamo

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Re: Remmanon [WIP]
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2016, 02:42:37 AM »
I think even the "DM boss" class could use some tweaks:
-Infernal legacy really should be removed. Feat progression is one of the most basic rules of the game, and it's not really doing anything for this class besides probably creating confusing situations.
-Similarly why the complicated caster level mechanic? Why not make it just equal to HD?
-Detect spells at will as a free action means it can just spam them until the targets rolls a natural 1. Should have at least a limit of 1/round.
-Skill pact is pretty unclear as it is. How long does it take to set up? Does the other creatures lose their skill bonus that's granted to the Remmanon? Any way to end it earlier? What if either of them are killed?
-Outrageous competence should be your Int bonus I believe, right now it could be read that you add your full Int score.
-Luck pact lacks several key details like the skill pact.
-Summon Baatezu has neither the action needed to start it nor a duration.
-Possession also very unclear. What's the action to start it? How away do you need to be? What happens to your original body? Where do you go when it ends, or if the host dies?
-Also a pretty important question, can the pacts/possession be resisted? Because otherwise this is a complete TPK as the Remmanon forces pacts into the players and then possesses them.

Anyway, I'll reiterate that it's very important for level to mean something. If you want to make a super monster, then what you need to do is make it higher level.  You're just making the DM job's harder if a monster turns out much stronger than expected. In this case, if the party faces a bunch of enemies that suddenly have an extra +6-14 to most rolls due to pacts, that could easily turn a fair battle into a TPK, and the party had zero ways of knowing their enemies were much stronger than expected since pacts can't be detected. Thus I would suggest making the "DM boss" version a short Prc that you apply on the top of the Remmanon, and that way the DM can better calculate how stronger it is.



Now here's some suggestions for a more PC-friendly version:
-Lower one of the save progressions to bad, probably reflex, as well as drop skill points to 6+Int mod.
-Remove the alignment restriction.
-Add limits to the numbers of SLA uses per day and spend normal actions.
-Lower the energy resistances.
-Half DR
-Flight speed doesn't double.

However as I write this, I realize something. You seem to have wandered too far from the original monster. Let's re-check the lore:
"Remmanons are devils that sow discord and distrust in mortals. Using cunning words, magical manipulation, and servitors loyal to them, they can bring down the strongest of fortifications by weakening them from inside.
...
It uses minions to keep its foes off balance in battle, but it doesn't fear wading into combat.
"

And the original monster actually only has a +4 bonus on Use Rope, meaning it doesn't even has any skill points on it, but you made it a major central theme of this class.

Then you give it the ability to super buff others through pacts, when it's supposed to be weakening them. This isn't supposed to be a recruiter devil, it's supposed to be a saboteur devil, making its enemies turn against each other. Heck, the luck pact even makes it harder for the people you make contracts with to die!  Why would a Remmanon want that? If you really want to add custom pacts, you need something that allows you to royally screw the other side. And no, possession doesn't count because the lore tells us that the Remmanon will personally charge into combat when the going gets tough to unleash its aura, not hide inside others where it can't burn others neither use its aura.

Plus lacking SR neither hellfire touch, which was supposed to be its primary melee attack. And it doesn't seem to say anywhere it gains the devil subtype.

EDIT: And then turn rope buffer devil into feats/ACF for the remmanon to don't discard what's already been written.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2016, 02:58:22 AM by oslecamo »

Offline ~Corvus~

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Re: Remmanon [WIP]
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2016, 09:39:54 PM »
My original idea with a Skill Pact is the ability to wreck a creature's competence at something. Give a spellcaster greater ability to identify spells but wreck its Concentration score. It's an exchange that the Remmanon can use to exploit another. But maybe it should be able to wreck more than skills.

A Luck Pact is in exchange for Possession, which is a long-term gamble for a Remmanon, and a *very* favorable one. Meanwhile, it can use this in conjunction with its other abilities to foster ambition and mistrust in others at someone's incredible skill. The Remmanon can then revoke the pact and cause someone to fail at a precise time. Hmm...Yes, revoke for *unluck*

To me the word "pact" implicitly requires consent, but I guess I have to *say* it, yeah? Okay, I have some work ahead of me! We need a way of making the Pact-bearers pliable to the Remmanon's influence, but not in a way exploitable for other means.

I have some work ahead of me!! woo!!
Quote from: HuskyBoi
I just need a minute to appreciate the words 'goliath lamp-post sneak attack'. That's a thing of beauty, right there.

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Offline oslecamo

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Re: Remmanon [finished]
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2017, 06:21:34 AM »
Ok, got Corvus PM to check on the updated version.

Overall much smoother, but two things stand out clearly.

First it's Summon Fiends that scales in a ridiculous way. Even necromancers usually only get 4 HD per CL, and that is undead HD, which kinda sucks. 5 HD worth of outsiders per CL is a small army's worth, aka just too much. If a Remmanon really wants a small permanent army, they can go ahead and burn a feat in Leadership for that.

Second it's Blood Infusion. Although not as OP as Summon Fiends, it is stupidly cheap and 2nd level Remmanons become gold quality minions to spam that on the party and other minions and anything else that catches your fancy. Also it's not very clear how it works since bloodlines usually cost exp to unlock as you go up. More glaring it's that there doesn't appear to be any hidden clause or penalty, just make the pact and each side goes to their merry life. The cheap cost could be offset by something like "you doom yourself to go to hell after death and can't be ressurected, plus take a penalty on 1d20 rolls against any actual Devils."

Oh, and table has a Control Fiends ability at 2nd level but doesn't show up on the description. On the other hand Blood Infusion doesn't show up at the table and it's supposed to be gained at 2nd level, so typo?

Offline Daedroth

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Re: Remmanon [finished]
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2017, 10:26:18 AM »

Second it's Blood Infusion. Although not as OP as Summon Fiends, it is stupidly cheap and 2nd level Remmanons become gold quality minions to spam that on the party and other minions and anything else that catches your fancy. Also it's not very clear how it works since bloodlines usually cost exp to unlock as you go up. More glaring it's that there doesn't appear to be any hidden clause or penalty, just make the pact and each side goes to their merry life. The cheap cost could be offset by something like "you doom yourself to go to hell after death and can't be ressurected, plus take a penalty on 1d20 rolls against any actual Devils."


Moreso, this ability is better the less HD the Remmanon has, wich is kind of strange.
Now I've lost it, I know I can kill. The truth exists beyond the Gate!

Offline ~Corvus~

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Re: Remmanon [finished]
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2017, 10:08:04 PM »
Moreso, this ability is better the less HD the Remmanon has, wich is kind of strange.

Blood Infusion has been changed to Invest Object. Ive been meaning to change that. Thank you for pointing that out to me!!
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 12:18:44 AM by ~Corvus~ »
Quote from: HuskyBoi
I just need a minute to appreciate the words 'goliath lamp-post sneak attack'. That's a thing of beauty, right there.

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Offline ~Corvus~

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Re: Remmanon [finished]
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2017, 12:29:51 AM »
Control Fiends was meant to be Charm. Changed.

Ok, got Corvus PM to check on the updated version.
First it's Summon Fiends that scales in a ridiculous way. Even necromancers usually only get 4 HD per CL, and that is undead HD, which kinda sucks. 5 HD worth of outsiders per CL is a small army's worth, aka just too much. If a Remmanon really wants a small permanent army, they can go ahead and burn a feat in Leadership for that.

Okay, that DOES make sense. As a creature capable of wielding influence it would make more sense if it could just CHARM them and/or talk with them and control less of them. Perhaps 1HD/Clvl is enough; it can charm the rest.
Quote from: HuskyBoi
I just need a minute to appreciate the words 'goliath lamp-post sneak attack'. That's a thing of beauty, right there.

Greedling avatar by Ceika from Giantitp.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Remmanon
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2017, 09:45:51 AM »
I've become fond of the new Invest Object. Last quirk I have is the "Mindless or unintelligent monsters summoned from this list may be controlled by the Remmanon without any effort." bit of the new summon devil. What does it mean exactly? The Corvus can eventually build up an army of fiendish vermin? Or that it can keep one as a pet all the time despite they having lots of HD?

Offline ~Corvus~

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Re: Remmanon
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2017, 11:37:50 PM »
I've become fond of the new Invest Object. Last quirk I have is the "Mindless or unintelligent monsters summoned from this list may be controlled by the Remmanon without any effort." bit of the new summon devil. What does it mean exactly? The Corvus can eventually build up an army of fiendish vermin? Or that it can keep one as a pet all the time despite they having lots of HD?

I'm glad!! I think the Invest Object could become even better later, but it seems important.

Normally, Mindless and non-undead creatures can't be "controlled" beyond basic "attack this or that" because they're mindless and thus incapable of receiving complex instructions. This means, essentially, that the fiendish Spiders & centipedes can be tactical opponents instead of simple minions. It makes these summons decent guards instead of simple ones. Should there be a way to articulate this?
Quote from: HuskyBoi
I just need a minute to appreciate the words 'goliath lamp-post sneak attack'. That's a thing of beauty, right there.

Greedling avatar by Ceika from Giantitp.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Remmanon
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2017, 03:11:19 AM »
It appears the class was further changed and the mindless clause removed since I had time to reply here. Everything else looks fine, so added to the index.