Author Topic: What's the minimum level needed to break 3.5 without loops?  (Read 5545 times)

Offline Endarire

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What's the minimum level needed to break 3.5 without loops?
« on: December 19, 2015, 12:51:47 AM »
Greetings, all!

Assuming I'm not using loops (like Pun-Pun), what's the minimum ECL needed to break the game?

I'm purposely leaving 'break the game' as an open definition.

Offline kitep

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Re: What's the minimum level needed to break 3.5 without loops?
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2015, 09:48:53 AM »
Phaedrusxy has a compilation of builds.  I'm betting a lot of the 1st level builds would "break the game".

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2813.0

Another thread with 1st level characters  http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4421.40


« Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 09:51:08 AM by kitep »

Offline KellKheraptis

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Re: What's the minimum level needed to break 3.5 without loops?
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2015, 10:18:04 AM »
How far down broken do we want to go?  I'm pretty sure Azrael is around somewhere, and he got 9's at level 1-3 or so.

Offline ketaro

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Re: What's the minimum level needed to break 3.5 without loops?
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2015, 10:22:00 AM »
Level 1 Commoner with Chicken-Infested?

Offline JohnnyMayHymn

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Re: What's the minimum level needed to break 3.5 without loops?
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2015, 05:37:11 PM »
Edit:Incarnate Construct is -2 LA, so I'd bet we can come up with something borked at -1 ECL... :plotting

any other negative LA templates?
« Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 05:55:58 PM by JohnnyMayHymn »
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Offline faeryn

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Re: What's the minimum level needed to break 3.5 without loops?
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2015, 12:35:43 AM »
Edit:Incarnate Construct is -2 LA, so I'd bet we can come up with something borked at -1 ECL... :plotting

any other negative LA templates?

"Level Adjustment:
–2 (minimum 0)."

The negative LA of Incarnate Construct is to account for the loss of construct features. Additionally it won't reduce your LA below 0, it's stated on the template itself.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: What's the minimum level needed to break 3.5 without loops?
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2015, 03:13:02 PM »
I think the E 6 guys and idea, have
batlle tested that power level well.
And while the decision to it cut off
at level 3 spells, is rather arbitrary,
it has worked out.

X 2 / Y 2 / Z 2  kinds of builds, were not
accounted for in wotc's original scheme.
But those too have been E 6 -ed to death.

So I think that's the cut off point.
You start to sling Level 4 spells
or breaking out specific melee
combos around 7th level = boom.

Other things show the troubles around
there too.  Leadership kills it.  Even a
r.a.i. UMD breaks down class+item walls.
Psi recharge always bears a mention here.
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline Endarire

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Re: What's the minimum level needed to break 3.5 without loops?
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2015, 01:45:14 AM »
Chicken-Infested is a loop:  Keep drawing N chickens.

Offline Shadowhunter

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Re: What's the minimum level needed to break 3.5 without loops?
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2015, 04:53:16 AM »
Actually, I feel stuff breaks at different levels depending on what part of 3.5 we talk about. But it is somewhere above level 4 and below level 10.
There's really strong spells at all spell levels, but the comparative power level of 4th to 3rd is noticeable. Mostly that's Polymorph's fault.

There's the old issue with Skills breaking down by level 9, or more accurately having broken down by 9th level. I used to have a quote on this one, but it was basically something like a bard attracting planar attention with their music and other examples, I can recall Balance, Survival and Swimming, but only vaguely. The thing referred here is the DC 30 perform check examples given in the book.
Let's see, 9th level, 12 ranks. Charisma mod of +6, assuming 18 base stat with two stat ups at 4th and 8th alongside a +2 Cha magic item. Masterwork the item for the +2 circumstance bonus. That's a +20 modifier to your Perform check, at level 9. And that isn't even trying to break things, I feel most new players who would sit down with the Core Only books and who wants to be good at performing will make all these choices, or close to them. They're intuitive.
Heck, there's the old Binder workhorse item in the DMG as well, Circlet of Persuasion for another +3 competence bonus.

Now I have less problems with the skill system if you confine it to E6 or E8. Because the implicit assumption is that by 6/8th level, you are Epic in that word by comparison. Then I don't mind the idea that a world-renown bard, the veritable Elvis or Edith Piaf or Michael Jackson or Madonna, is level 6 or 8.

But in regular DnD, if you are hitting the highest normal printed DC of a perform check on average dice by level 9, what the game tells me is that you manage what is deemed "very difficult" trivially by the point you are halfway into your career.



Other issues is that the verisimilitude and world building have potential pitfalls. I know they didn't bother with a economical system that works because it's only supposed to interact with the players on a small scale. But as a world builder and the DM, I want a world that makes sense to me, given what is in it. Going by the DMG and looking at how many NPCss there should be in various sized communities, I can't help but notice that Plant Growth really should have an impact on the way farming work. Gah. Simply put, I feel the baseline assumption in the DMG about how many spellcasters are around ineveitably would impact how the world building needs to go. I have a hard time putting this into words, though.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2015, 04:55:48 AM by Shadowhunter »

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: What's the minimum level needed to break 3.5 without loops?
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2015, 03:09:03 PM »
The real answer is 'it depends on how much you have fixed D&D'

Example: Just fix the loops! -> ice assassin similacrum of ...
Example: Just fix the higher level spells! -> fast casters
Example: Just fix the PrCs! -> Wizard w/ over 1000 spells known.
Example: Just fix the sources -> Core only Druid 8+
...

The truth of the matter is, you need to fix everything lacking tensile strength, but only in the least invasive way possible. No one has ever done this comprehensively to my knowledge. Instead, everyone simply overhauls/schisms the system, often leaving a finished product that doesn't look like 3.5

Don't worry. I'll be releasing comprehensive fixes once I finish the online sources sorting.

Offline Keldar

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Re: What's the minimum level needed to break 3.5 without loops?
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2015, 06:45:07 PM »
Well housecats can safely hunt humans for food, so verisimilitude dies right out the gate.
Levitate comes online at level 3, making fights against non-casters trivial.  Especially all the melee only monsters, like the bloomin' Terasque.  It also makes standard fantasy castles worthless.  No wonder everyone lives in dungeons.
Teleport destroys standard narrative at level 9.  One does not walk into Mordor, one teleports right to Mount Doom.
Detect spells start ruining intrigue at level 1.  The Vizier is evil!  The doppleganger detects of transmutation!
Saving throws balloon to auto win by 10th for the good ones, and may nearly be auto fail for the bad ones by then.  Compare typical Cleric vs Fighter will saves.
Spells start becoming fiat wins at level 3, when Zone of Truth makes Bluff worthless.  They only cover more things as levels improve.

Offline zugschef

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Re: What's the minimum level needed to break 3.5 without loops?
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2015, 11:05:50 AM »
Elven commoner 1 (age 350) with ranks in craft basket weaving: wbl broken before the game even started.

Offline Azrael

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Re: What's the minimum level needed to break 3.5 without loops?
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2015, 09:27:40 PM »
How far down broken do we want to go?  I'm pretty sure Azrael is around somewhere, and he got 9's at level 1-3 or so.


Huh?

I would have just suggested the lvl 1 warforged pugilist fighter variant. It's by no means all powerful and can certainly be beaten (through level/stat drain/etc)  but being immune to all damage at level 1 is pretty broken by any game's standards. Also, it's  not bad for a 1 level dip that you can easily take into full caster afterward and only lose the one CL (though I think losing 1 CL for damage immunity is a pretty fair trade).

Offline KellKheraptis

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Re: What's the minimum level needed to break 3.5 without loops?
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2015, 10:06:46 PM »
How far down broken do we want to go?  I'm pretty sure Azrael is around somewhere, and he got 9's at level 1-3 or so.


Huh?

I would have just suggested the lvl 1 warforged pugilist fighter variant. It's by no means all powerful and can certainly be beaten (through level/stat drain/etc)  but being immune to all damage at level 1 is pretty broken by any game's standards. Also, it's  not bad for a 1 level dip that you can easily take into full caster afterward and only lose the one CL (though I think losing 1 CL for damage immunity is a pretty fair trade).

Sorry, I think the build I was after was Amaranth, who gets level 9 spells cooking really early (Ilumian sigil and Heighten Spell abuse).  Though naming it after the angel of death would likely also fit :P

Offline Azrael

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Re: What's the minimum level needed to break 3.5 without loops?
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2015, 12:14:53 AM »
I thought you were referring to my sig char by the same name which is a thrallherd fusion abuse build. He gets 9th level spells at the same lvl as everyone else.