Author Topic: [Multi Edition discussion] which Editon does the gish best?  (Read 2466 times)

Offline Libertad

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[Multi Edition discussion] which Editon does the gish best?
« on: January 05, 2016, 04:27:22 PM »
This is rather subjective depending on what you want or consider ideal, but there are some common goalposts. I did not cover all Editions in my OP as I am not very familiar with 2nd and 4th. Others more knowledgeable can fill them in.

Basic D&D: the elf class is pretty much this, straight from level 1. They have the slowesr progression in experience and can only go up to 5th level spells, but overall they're superior to base mages and fighters.

3rd Edition: eldritch knight and duskblade, a magus for PF, too many PrCs to count, this is very gish-friendly.

5th Edition: the eldritch knight is now core option for fighters, but you can't get it until 3rd level.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: January 05, 2016, 04:28:58 PM by Libertad »

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: [Multi Edition discussion] which Editon does the gish best?
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2016, 05:38:23 PM »
1e ... let's say Bard could be played as a Gish conceptually
and some sort of Multiclassing would definitely qualify (idk which).
But absolutely not available at early game levels.

3.5e Psi ... really got the idea rolling, and it filtered over to C.O. rather quickly, where the general idea had currency already.  Throw in the mechanical based +16 BAB and 9s target by level 20 for Epic, which became a "thing".

4e ... it sorta doesn't matter how conceptually a Gish shoulda/coulda worked, it all fits into that 4e specific overall schema.  Some like it ... some .

5e ... hey at least they're trying.  The 1/3rd casters don't seem all that interesting to the fan base, with provable lack of interest in FiEK and RogAT help threads.  idk what the "problem" is, but perhaps the underlying maths are too opaque to make "sense" and/or too much extra bookkeeping for combat.  Shrug.  Fan base and feelings are wtf.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2016, 05:40:14 PM by awaken_D_M_golem »
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: [Multi Edition discussion] which Editon does the gish best?
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2016, 09:37:28 PM »
2e: multiclassed fighter/mage, duel-classed human fighter/mage, or bard could all do this just fine. There was also a bladesinger "kit" and a bard "blade" kit which IIRC did it well also.

If you're looking for single-classed only, I guess bard was it. It was quite a strong class, though. It had casting just shy of a wizard, but better hit dice, skills, attack bonus, etc...

It could also be quite good in 3rd edition, especially with the splatbooks for min-maxing IC.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2016, 09:39:46 PM by phaedrusxy »
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: [Multi Edition discussion] which Editon does the gish best?
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2016, 10:19:49 PM »
5th probably did gish within it's core rule books the best. EK really is a solid build but don't forget Bard & Warlock's gish roles and Arcane Trickster. Like 3rd/2nd it also brings multiclass options to even more too.

4th, meh. Punching your self in the crotch for an hour is better than this thing.

3rd, offers probably the most powerful gishs thanks to the Edition's very powerful Spells. Not to mention an StP Erudite with the Tashalatora meets all the intended criteria and functionally casts everything infinitely with the most powerful melee weapon in the game.

2nd was probably the hardest to build a gish. Multiclass Fighter/Mage was a good default, but Bard in some ways was better. Dual-Classing was a nightmare and often easy to get trapped in. But the system inherently really didn't have anything for gishing other than it's Bard or multiclassing options.

So relatively, 3rd wins. "Gish" in that setting can really come down to what Spells did you Persist, and in game a gish form 3rd Edition rewrite, duplicate, and create new realities. A trait that was nerfed in later Editions and far to vague in earlier ones to prove what you could do in a debate.

Offline Nunkuruji

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Re: [Multi Edition discussion] which Editon does the gish best?
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2016, 11:21:54 AM »
I would say 3.5 psionics made the best gishes in terms of
-Power gain
-Versatility
-Flexibility
-Ease of build
-Smoothness of build progress through levels

3.5 Vancian usually had to deal with
-Complex class level builds with often garbage prereqs resulting in jagged build progression
-Dealing with ASF in some cases
-Less flexibility in spell resources (prepping & slots)


2e multiclassing was ok, but spell durations and spell choices are not as vast or powerful as 3.5, at least from my limited experience.


5e works just fine
-The concentration systems puts the power gain well behind what one gains in 3.5.
-Affords you the kind of magic you need for the encounter at hand. Ever useful shield, energy resistance at hand for flameskulls, elementals, dragons, etc.
-Within the system the 1/3 casters work just fine, as the attractive gish spells are concentrated in the lower half of the class spell lists.
-In 5e, between concentration, limited spell slots and class spell lists, casters also do not steal the role of the tank or gish in later levels.
-A lot of useful gish spells are bonus actions or reactions, making the action economy and combat flow very straightforward. Less stress over acquiring quicken, or preparing extend/persist.
-Better flexibility in usage of spell slots than 3.5