Author Topic: How much do LA's hurt?  (Read 6620 times)

Offline Masakan

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How much do LA's hurt?
« on: April 28, 2016, 06:42:29 PM »
I hear this all the time, that LA races are almost never worth it. Is this always the case or are there exceptions?

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: How much do LA's hurt?
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2016, 07:56:31 PM »
There are of course exceptions. There are threads devoted to rating them.
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Offline Masakan

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Re: How much do LA's hurt?
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2016, 08:05:22 PM »
mind directing me? I looked through the index but got bupcus.

Offline Argent Fatalis

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Re: How much do LA's hurt?
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2016, 09:25:24 PM »
The most important question is, is can the Level Adjustment be bought off? If yes, it opens up many more Level Adjusted races as you can remove the one factor that prevents them from most likely being a valid choice aside from them potentially having racial Hit Dice. If no, you are sort of committed to the usual fare that are still just "that good" - your Anthropomorphic Bat being a notorious example.

It also depends entirely upon if you are dedicating to a melee build or a spellcasting build, as the former can more readily accept a Level Adjustment than not and in some cases they are almost mandatory. In reality, most races with this adjustment are unlikely to see as much play as your typical Player's Handbook races or variants there of; many Dungeon Masters do not realize how powerful an Elan, Azurin, Strongheart Halfling or similar race can be to a build because they make the assumption that they are just a minor variant of an established race and could not possibly be that powerful.

Imagine the difference between reading "Anthropomorphic Bat" and "Strongheart Halfling" on a druid's character sheet. One of those, before the game even starts, is going to catch more attention and question than the other.

If you are allowed to use them, but may not buy off their Level Adjustment and are doing so for the sake of the flavor of being that race, the point is moot and unratable. In an optimization spectrum, without Buy-Off, they are generally a worse investment and more trouble than they are worth.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 09:29:34 PM by Argent Fatalis »

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: How much do LA's hurt?
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2016, 03:17:22 AM »
Very, very rarely is LA worth it for casters.  They break the number 1 rule for casters:  Thou shalt not lose caster/manifester levels (unless the trade is for something phenomenal.)

For other character types it's really dependent on what you get from the LA.  If the character is melee lockdown then Goliath, Half-giant, or Eneko are great because they all have Powerful Build and thus qualify for Knockback.

And even if LA is worth it in the end for a character, that doesn't mean it'll be good in the beginning.  Losing out on hit points is often quite lethal in the early game unless you've got your defenses well in hand.

Basically, compare the build with an LA race to the same build with a human.  If the LA build can do something worthwhile (without unduly sacrificing other worthwhile things) that the human build can't do at the same effective level then it might work out.

Offline Amechra

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Re: How much do LA's hurt?
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2016, 03:58:58 AM »
LA hurts a lot more early on than later on (even if you aren't playing by the LA-buyoff rules).

+2 LA if you're starting at 3rd level is a death sentence most of the time, due to you having the HP, saves, BAB, and skills of a 1st-level character. It's generally not worth it.

+2 LA if you're starting at 9th level is considerably more OK, as long as you accept that you're essentially a 7th level character in every respect that matters.

A good rule of thumb: if the LA is going to be less than one-third of your total character level, it's going to be fine unless you're playing the party's main caster. That being said, if your group isn't very into optimization, some stuff (like a Half-Fey Sorcerer) become considerably more viable, since the LA acts as a nice handicap.

That being said... I doubt low-mid op groups will let you come to the table with a template, since they look cheese-y.



That being said, a Lesser Aasimar Paladin 2 with the Serenity feat and the Saint template is fluff gold, and would be reasonably solid in a 4th level party.

That being said, that's because Saint is amazing; if the Saint template was a two level class with a Commoner chassis, I could still see people dumping levels into it.

Actually, that's a good rule of thumb for templates - if you could see someone taking X levels of Commoner to get the template's benefits (where X is the template's LA), then it's good, and you could get away with having it be more that 1/3 of your character level.

Similarly, for a race with LA - if you could see yourself taking all the levels in a class X levels long, where X is the sum of its RHD and its LA to get the same benefits... then it's doable.

For example, an Ogre would be the equivalent of starting with a Half Orc, and taking 6 levels to just get a size increase, +10ft base land speed, +5 natural armor, a +8 to Str, a +4 to Con, and a +2 to Wis, with a further -2 penalty to Dex, Int, and Cha.

Would you take 6 levels in a class with one good save, poor BAB, and less than 2+Int skills for that?
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Offline Masakan

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Re: How much do LA's hurt?
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2016, 07:26:47 PM »
Well heres an example of what I have in mind...so say I wanted to make a...Warblade4/Barbarian2 that prestiges into champion of Gwyn
And the best races for this imo are half giants and goliaths, Would it be worth it despite the LA?

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: How much do LA's hurt?
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2016, 08:25:55 PM »
mind directing me? I looked through the index but got bupcus.
Here is one from the old boards (I didn't look to see if it was copied here): Tier System for Templates

Edit: AHA! I finally found the "LAs that are really worth it!" handbook. It is now buried down inside of a post within this thread (it used to be its own thread on an old board, but evidently the original was lost).
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 08:29:51 PM by phaedrusxy »
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Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: How much do LA's hurt?
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2016, 01:19:10 PM »
With an eye to optimization and LA buy-off, you can step around the land-mines (hint anything with LA over 7).

If you are in high-optimization, LA isn't the problem. The designers understood LA (it's an ECL tax). More than half designers, however, did NOT understand racial HD. It's the RHD that will make 90% of races unplayable. It's like forcing your character into a tier 5 or tier 6 class. Once THAT ECL tax is paid, you don't have a character.

If you want to make most races playable, see my Balanced ECL Variant.
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Offline Masakan

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Re: How much do LA's hurt?
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2016, 02:28:37 PM »
With an eye to optimization and LA buy-off, you can step around the land-mines (hint anything with LA over 7).

If you are in high-optimization, LA isn't the problem. The designers understood LA (it's an ECL tax). More than half designers, however, did NOT understand racial HD. It's the RHD that will make 90% of races unplayable. It's like forcing your character into a tier 5 or tier 6 class. Once THAT ECL tax is paid, you don't have a character.

If you want to make most races playable, see my Balanced ECL Variant.
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Racial hit die is an issue? Why?

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: How much do LA's hurt?
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2016, 03:10:26 PM »
Compare these Racial Hit Dice to bottom tier classes
like Commoner or Aristocrat or Warrior, or even Expert.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#increasingHitDice
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Offline Masakan

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Re: How much do LA's hurt?
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2016, 05:39:33 PM »
Compare these Racial Hit Dice to bottom tier classes
like Commoner or Aristocrat or Warrior, or even Expert.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#increasingHitDice

Not sure i get it but long story short any race that has its own racial hit die is bad right?

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: How much do LA's hurt?
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2016, 05:41:59 PM »
Compare these Racial Hit Dice to bottom tier classes
like Commoner or Aristocrat or Warrior, or even Expert.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#increasingHitDice

Not sure i get it but long story short any race that has its own racial hit die is bad right?
More than a couple, yes. There are a few rare exceptions.
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Offline zook1shoe

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Re: How much do LA's hurt?
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2016, 01:39:37 AM »
As mentioned, it's all about the context. Certain builds are fine w LA penalties for a goal, while others are not.
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: How much do LA's hurt?
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2016, 03:01:42 PM »
Take as a for-instance the Megaraptor
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dinosaur.htm#megaraptor

It's got 8 hd.  So you decide to level it up.
It gets +1 rhd.  Cross reference with my earlier link.

It doesn't get anything else = closest to which Class?
At 17 hd it becomes +1 size category and
all the attendant goodies.
... or ...
It takes 1 level of a class that has Enlarge
and gets the same thing 10 levels earlier.
10.
That's a lot of time and levels to do something else
or something better.
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Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: How much do LA's hurt?
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2016, 04:08:27 PM »
Compare these Racial Hit Dice to bottom tier classes
like Commoner or Aristocrat or Warrior, or even Expert.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#increasingHitDice

Not sure i get it but long story short any race that has its own racial hit die is bad right?
More than a couple, yes. There are a few rare exceptions.
The big one being racial casting. My variant specifically addresses this.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: How much do LA's hurt?
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2016, 04:49:23 PM »
Hey, the archive Savage Species web enhancement
has a nifty little remove an LA+1 by going small, rule.
1st entry right at the top.
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20030207a

That's more universal than the P.19 (iirc) thread I made
a few years back.  And less room for dm-gaxian-ness.
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Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: How much do LA's hurt?
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2016, 10:44:38 AM »
Hey, the archive Savage Species web enhancement
has a nifty little remove an LA+1 by going small, rule.
Hmm. I used to really rag on the SS custom race rules, but I looked over them fully again and they aren't that bad. Sure they are just plain dumb/wrong in a few places, but they aren't wildly off. Has anyone made a handbook on LA for custom races before?

I once made a thread based off a .1 LA scale where first 10 points were free but after that it rounded up. No one seemed that interested. I might dust it off and compare it to such an SS estimating LA handbook.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: How much do LA's hurt?
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2016, 02:53:35 PM »
There was a dude back at non-CO wotc, who
worked up truly giant piles of point buy type
char'gen for everything .  Circa '02 to '04.

It might have been ~ Szanty or ~ Szazanty or
something similar like Szanty's Ultimate Races.


"Small" isn't a problem for non-frontliners, so
picking up a LA+1 reduction this way, is a totally
stupid boost for casters, reasonable for sneaks.

edit --- and this thread  :) http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6306.0
« Last Edit: May 08, 2016, 02:55:25 PM by awaken_D_M_golem »
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Offline Chemus

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Re: How much do LA's hurt?
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2016, 05:08:11 AM »
ADMG, my recollection of the name is Szatany, which is supported by google. Searching for 'Szatany Ultimate Classes' nets a few links, but some of it appears to be lost.
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