A Bard that doesn't inspire courage

[Masakan]

...or inspire anything really?
What is the general reception of a Bard that doesn't inspire and chooses to focus more on skills/spells?

[SorO_Lost]

A Bard that doesn't inspire... Would be better off just playing a Trickster Spellthief or Necropoliton Sorcerer dipping Prestige Bard for the unique Spells & Metamagic Song abuse.

[Masakan]

A Bard that doesn't inspire... Would be better off just playing a Trickster Spellthief or Necropoliton Sorcerer dipping Prestige Bard for the unique Spells & Metamagic Song abuse.

Then which is more useful inspire awe or inspire courage?

[linklord231]

A Bard that doesn't inspire... Would be better off just playing a Trickster Spellthief or Necropoliton Sorcerer dipping Prestige Bard for the unique Spells & Metamagic Song abuse.

Then which is more useful inspire awe or inspire courage?

Inspire Courage is more generally useful, because you can give your friends huge bonuses to hit and damage, and bonuses to hit and damage are useful in almost all combat scenarios.  Inspire Awe is good, but it's not as useful in as many situations - lots of things are immune to fear or to mind-effecting. 

I have to ask though, if you don't want to Inspire anything, why be a bard at all?  Their skills aren't any better than a rogue or factotum's, and their spells are significantly worse than any full caster.  Further, there's really no downside to Inspiring because you can either take a feat or buy an item that will let you cast and sing at the same time anyway. 

[Masakan]

A Bard that doesn't inspire... Would be better off just playing a Trickster Spellthief or Necropoliton Sorcerer dipping Prestige Bard for the unique Spells & Metamagic Song abuse.

Then which is more useful inspire awe or inspire courage?

Inspire Courage is more generally useful, because you can give your friends huge bonuses to hit and damage, and bonuses to hit and damage are useful in almost all combat scenarios.  Inspire Awe is good, but it's not as useful in as many situations - lots of things are immune to fear or to mind-effecting. 

I have to ask though, if you don't want to Inspire anything, why be a bard at all?  Their skills aren't any better than a rogue or factotum's, and their spells are significantly worse than any full caster.  Further, there's really no downside to Inspiring because you can either take a feat or buy an item that will let you cast and sing at the same time anyway.

Mostly because i like the flavor, and im trying to make a dancing bard which i imagine inspire awe would work better. Unless im missing something, I don't see how you can inspire courage by dancing feasibly

[ketaro]

Seeker of the Song.

Kill your foes with mad riffs.

[linklord231]

Mostly because i like the flavor, and im trying to make a dancing bard which i imagine inspire awe would work better. Unless im missing something, I don't see how you can inspire courage by dancing feasibly

By RAW, you can't inspire anything by dancing.  All bardic performances require some kind of audio component - song, poetry, oration, chanting, playing an instrument...
It would be fairly straightforward to houserule that though.  Instead of being nonfunctional in silence, your performance would be nonfunctional when out of line of sight and so on. 
If you meant that from a verisimilitude perspective, you don't feel dancing is as good as singing for cheering on your teammates, then I guess we'll just have to disagree.  However, I would point out that, for example, Fire Emblem has an entire class dedicated to that premise.


If you're making a dancer, I'd recommend taking a look at this old thread for inspiration.  The premise is basically to get as many things running off Concentration as possible, then use Undersong to replace Concentration with Perform. 
Also check out the feat Snowflake Wardance and the Slippers of Battledancing.
If homebrew is allowed, take a look at SirP's Wardancer.


All that being said, Inspire Awe isn't bad.  In fact, it's pretty good!  Perform checks are ridiculously easy to boost, which means the DC to avoid being Shaken is quite high.  It also doesn't have the clause about not stacking with other fear attempts that some other abilities do, which means you can fear-stack fairly easily.  If you wanted to, you could probably make a solid build out of this. 
The problem with Inspire Awe is twofold.  First, Inspire Courage is really good, and you have to give it up in order to get Inspire Awe.  It's trivially easy to get your IC bonus to +5 or higher, even at low levels.  That +5 is multiplied by every attack your party has, which adds up quickly.  And as I mentioned earlier, you can do other things at the same time, so there's virtually no action economy tradeoff.
Second, fear stacking isn't really a great schtick, especially in mid-high levels.  As you level up, you tend to encounter more and more things that are immune to fear or mind-effecting effects.  If you invest heavily in fear stacking, then those resources are wasted every time you come across something your tactic doesn't work on.  And since Fear is such a crippling debuff, you can expect your DM to put you in a lot of situations where it doesn't work for whatever reason. 

[ketaro]

Tap-dancing is very much audio. So yes, you could inspire with just dancing, if you define said dancing

[IlPazzo]

A Bard that doesn't inspire... Would be better off just playing a Trickster Spellthief or Necropoliton Sorcerer dipping Prestige Bard for the unique Spells & Metamagic Song abuse.

Actually, Prestige Bard doesn't add the Bard list to whatever arcane spellcasting class you're advancing with it.

If you want to go the route Soro is suggesting, you'll have to use any of the usual methods to cast from the list of a different class.

e.g. Archivist can access the whole Bard list due to Divine Bard.

Another way to get kind of a bardic feel (and power level) would be an arcane focus Chameleon. Lots of skill points and you can write a spellbook with many classic bardic spells. The free feat that you can change every day is very fun to have and play. Entry via Bard 5 or something alike to get some bardic music.

[Maelphaxerazz]

If you do not want to inspire but rather want a dancing character in general, there are a number of classes and feats related to dance.

Base class: Battle Dancer. Its terrible, but fluff-appropriate. Perhaps your DM would be willing to modify it to increase its power level. My "lazy man's fix" is to give it skill points and class skills as per Rogue, saves as per Monk, and a d10 hit die, all of which makes sense for the class and would bump it up to a solid tier 4.

Prestige classes:
Astral Dancer (too plane-specific)
Blade Dancer
Cloaked Dancer
Dervish
Shadowdancer
Or, if you want to go a spellcasting route (likely using Cleric as the base class):
Sword Dancer (must be an Elf)
Spelldancer

Feats:
Cloak Dance (if you can't spare a feat, try the skill trick version, Shrouded Dance)
Dancing Blade
Path of Shadows (Kalashtar, appropriate for a spellcasting dancer)
Dancing with Shadows

[Masakan]

I like the suggestions, but none of them seem specific enough to help what im going for.
So I'll just put up a short description of what i have so far, the class path and feats i have planned and
see what you guys can come up with


"Performer, enchantress, Silver tounged thief
personality wise she would be  a very outgoing person not afraid to show skin
pretty much refusing to wear anything that doesnt expose her midriff
very easy to get along with and a doubles as a negotiator and investigator
but shes also very rash, impulsive, terrible with money and loves jewels
she's also prone to tantrum and is ever so slightly vain(edited)
which is fitting considering she's a sunite"

Bard 1
Battle Dancer 1
Bard 4
Ardent Dilligante 4
Heartwarder 10

Dodge
Mobility
Nymph's Kiss
Melodic Casting
Knowledge Devotion
Spring Attack
Spell Focus(Enchantment)
Snap Kick:Bonus Feat
Elusive Target
Versatile Spellcaster
Bounding Assault

[phaedrusxy]

A Bard that doesn't inspire... Would be better off just playing a Trickster Spellthief or Necropoliton Sorcerer dipping Prestige Bard for the unique Spells & Metamagic Song abuse.

Actually, Prestige Bard doesn't add the Bard list to whatever arcane spellcasting class you're advancing with it.

It absolutely does. The rules on it just aren't in the place you'd expect them to be. It's at the overview of these "prestige" classes, not in the individual classes themselves, presumably because they didn't want to print it 3 times.

Unique Spells
The bard, paladin, and ranger spell lists contain a number of spells that don't appear on other classes' spell lists. In general, any character who enters one of these prestige classes should gain access to spells unique to that class's spell list, at the same levels indicated for the standard class. At the game master's discretion, spells unique to that class's spell list found in other books may also be available, but on a case by case basis. The game master may require such spells to be researched or learned specifically by the character, rather than simply making them freely available.

[Amechra]

I'd suggest Cleric of Sune in place of Bard, but then you'd want the Trickery domain, and that would require Heretic of the Faith.

I mean, the Lust domain does seem awfully appropriate to the short description you put up... (At least, if this is accurate. I know Sune gets Lust as one of her granted domains, but I can't remember what book it's from.)

But yeah - if you can get it allowed, the Trickery variant for the Spellthief would probably be ideal - it gives you Bard casting without any sort of Inspire Stuff.

Or would a pet be fine too? Ask the DM if you can trade out the stuff granted by that variant for city-based stuff.

That'd give you:

• A pet cat or something. Classic.
• A bonus to Sense Motive checks - can't have the clever thief/performer being tricked, now can we?
• The ability to talk to people regardless of having a shared language. Classy.

And Resist Nature's Lure just gives you resistance to the spell-like abilities of Fey, which makes some sense.

[Masakan]

I'd suggest Cleric of Sune in place of Bard, but then you'd want the Trickery domain, and that would require Heretic of the Faith.

I mean, the Lust domain does seem awfully appropriate to the short description you put up... (At least, if this is accurate. I know Sune gets Lust as one of her granted domains, but I can't remember what book it's from.)

But yeah - if you can get it allowed, the Trickery variant for the Spellthief would probably be ideal - it gives you Bard casting without any sort of Inspire Stuff.

Or would a pet be fine too? Ask the DM if you can trade out the stuff granted by that variant for city-based stuff.

That'd give you:

• A pet cat or something. Classic.
• A bonus to Sense Motive checks - can't have the clever thief/performer being tricked, now can we?
• The ability to talk to people regardless of having a shared language. Classy.

And Resist Nature's Lure just gives you resistance to the spell-like abilities of Fey, which makes some sense.

That would work except there's one tiny problem.....How do i make her entirely charisma reliant? cause clerics mainly cast on wisdom...right? The nature bard would certainly make more sense and would generally be more useable...can never go wrong with a big pet tiger. and we know sune LOVES her cats.

[IlPazzo]

[...]
It absolutely does. The rules on it just aren't in the place you'd expect them to be. It's at the overview of these "prestige" classes, not in the individual classes themselves, presumably because they didn't want to print it 3 times.

Nice. This makes them much more interesting. (Also, it's a sidebar in the actual book. I hate sidebars, they always tend to be in random places)

I also wanna play a Beguiler/Something/Prestige Bard so much now.

[Amechra]

I'd suggest Cleric of Sune in place of Bard, but then you'd want the Trickery domain, and that would require Heretic of the Faith.

I mean, the Lust domain does seem awfully appropriate to the short description you put up... (At least, if this is accurate. I know Sune gets Lust as one of her granted domains, but I can't remember what book it's from.)

But yeah - if you can get it allowed, the Trickery variant for the Spellthief would probably be ideal - it gives you Bard casting without any sort of Inspire Stuff.

Or would a pet be fine too? Ask the DM if you can trade out the stuff granted by that variant for city-based stuff.

That'd give you:

• A pet cat or something. Classic.
• A bonus to Sense Motive checks - can't have the clever thief/performer being tricked, now can we?
• The ability to talk to people regardless of having a shared language. Classy.

And Resist Nature's Lure just gives you resistance to the spell-like abilities of Fey, which makes some sense.

That would work except there's one tiny problem.....How do i make her entirely charisma reliant? cause clerics mainly cast on wisdom...right? The nature bard would certainly make more sense and would generally be more useable...can never go wrong with a big pet tiger. and we know sune LOVES her cats.

There was a feat somewhere... let's see...

Ah. Yes. Dynamic Priest.

You'd probably never get your DM to agree to it (it's 2nd-ish party), but that's the way.

[SorO_Lost]

A Bard that doesn't inspire... Would be better off just playing a Trickster Spellthief or Necropoliton Sorcerer dipping Prestige Bard for the unique Spells & Metamagic Song abuse.

Actually, Prestige Bard doesn't add the Bard list to whatever arcane spellcasting class you're advancing with it.

Unique Spells
The bard, paladin, and ranger spell lists contain a number of spells that don't appear on other classes' spell lists. In general, any character who enters one of these prestige classes should gain access to spells unique to that class's spell list, at the same levels indicated for the standard class. At the game master's discretion, spells unique to that class's spell list found in other books may also be available, but on a case by case basis. The game master may require such spells to be researched or learned specifically by the character, rather than simply making them freely available.

If "should" is off limits then how would you use the UA to begin with? 

Technically "ninja'ed" by Pha but meh, working my way down the list.

I'd suggest Cleric of Sune in place of Bard, but then you'd want the Trickery domain, and that would require Heretic of the Faith.

Paladin works well with the Bard and the Paladin can totally be replaced by the Cleric.

I might follow up with this idea later, all it takes is adding Smite to Song on my Cleric replacement for the most part.

I also wanna play a Beguiler/Something/Prestige Bard so much now.

How about a Child of Eberron Steel Dragon 4 / Sorcerer 4 / Silver Pyromancer 1 / Prestige Bard 1 / Rainbow Servant 10 using LA buyoff?

You get the Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin, & Sorcerer Spell Lists to choose from.

[Masakan]

I'd suggest Cleric of Sune in place of Bard, but then you'd want the Trickery domain, and that would require Heretic of the Faith.

I mean, the Lust domain does seem awfully appropriate to the short description you put up... (At least, if this is accurate. I know Sune gets Lust as one of her granted domains, but I can't remember what book it's from.)

But yeah - if you can get it allowed, the Trickery variant for the Spellthief would probably be ideal - it gives you Bard casting without any sort of Inspire Stuff.

Or would a pet be fine too? Ask the DM if you can trade out the stuff granted by that variant for city-based stuff.

That'd give you:

• A pet cat or something. Classic.
• A bonus to Sense Motive checks - can't have the clever thief/performer being tricked, now can we?
• The ability to talk to people regardless of having a shared language. Classy.

And Resist Nature's Lure just gives you resistance to the spell-like abilities of Fey, which makes some sense.

That would work except there's one tiny problem.....How do i make her entirely charisma reliant? cause clerics mainly cast on wisdom...right? The nature bard would certainly make more sense and would generally be more useable...can never go wrong with a big pet tiger. and we know sune LOVES her cats.

There was a feat somewhere... let's see...

Ah. Yes. Dynamic Priest.

You'd probably never get your DM to agree to it (it's 2nd-ish party), but that's the way.

I actually know about that feat...but I don't think it would work just because since i plan to make an enchantress DC's are everything.

I'd suggest Cleric of Sune in place of Bard, but then you'd want the Trickery domain, and that would require Heretic of the Faith.

Paladin works well with the Bard and the Paladin can totally be replaced by the Cleric.

I might follow up with this idea later, all it takes is adding Smite to Song on my Cleric replacement for the most part.

Could a Half-Naked Paladin work?

[SorO_Lost]

Could a Half-Naked Paladin work?

Rivine Full-Plate is transparent, does it count as half naked if they can see through what you're wearing?

And to add to that, there is an Slimy Signature trait in the DMGII that makes any magic item, well slimy. Every weapon you own could be prelubed.

[Masakan]

Could a Half-Naked Paladin work?

Rivine Full-Plate is transparent, does it count as half naked if they can see through what you're wearing?

And to add to that, there is an Slimy Signature trait in the DMGII that makes any magic item, well slimy. Every weapon you own could be prelubed.

never heard of either one