What are the toughest encounters for each CR ?

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Chickens ... Infested with Commoner Campaign ++
Theme :  Million Monkeys over a million years, can write all of Shakespear.  We do it sooner.
Details :  CR 1/10 (and 1/8s too) can hack almost all of the Commoner Campaign.  Except there's 2 or more of them.  And a wizard can get involved.  Or anyone else.  See Shadowhunter's post replay #10 below.
Start here ---> http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?232822-The-Commoner-Handbook


McGroober ... the Kobold MacGyver
Theme :  Agent of Pun-pun gets more mileage out of magic marts and npcs than anybody else.
Details :  NPC 1s have at least as much gear as level 2 PCs, and a higher net worth.  NPC 2s still have the advantage.  Kobolds kick this off at a CR = NPC (-3) level.  So a Kobold Expert 1 is a CR 1/4, Kobold Adept 2 is CR 1/3, Kobold Warrior 3 is CR 1/2, Kobold Commoner 4 is CR 1.  Kobolds Npc 6 can take Leadership, etc.  You still have a build to bother with.  You could have more than 1.
Start here ---> http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8944.0




OP

(click to show/hide)

Has this ever been listed / handbooked anywhere?
1st and 2nd level NPCs can have ++ or +++ gear compared to PCs, and that's regardless of CR.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

No, but I've gobbled up examples from the many "imbalanced CR" threads. Since its in my DMing stuff, its one of the few things I didn't freely release in my sig.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Niiiiic/ wait dang it PLZ you ain't poifect?!
Good to know.


NPC casters are also obvious, fitting the tiers and not needing a lot of gear to be deadly.
And if the MIC p.o.v. (Soro) is being played = nearly 4e style Wishlist, the dude with that gear the PC wants, knows how to use it, made it, doesn't want the whippersnappers to get it.

[Dr_emperor]

I thought it went something like
1 tiny swarm/whirling frenzy orc barbarian 2 handing something
2 half dragon hawk (breath weapon high damage huge ac good movement)
3 shadow (DM didn't give you magic weapons yet)...

9 adamantium construct thing...
13 advanced elephant monster of legacy using epic rules (really anything with 25 hit die and monster of legacy twin cast wish +5 inherent bonus to all ability scores and then used in combat to grab whatever spells.)

[awaken_D_M_golem]

I like those ...  ... do you maybe have a link to something?

Shadows are deadly if they have any chance at making spawn.
Savage Species has a Shadow racial prog = do the Shadow thing at "level" 1 (idk CR on that one).

[Shadowhunter]

The monstrous crab have a bit of a reputation for just being a CR3 creature.
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a

+19 grapple modifier at level 3 seems hard to beat for you average adventurer, meaning that if the +10 to hit attack hits you, you're probably taking 2d8+18 damage that turn. Say your average Cleric/Druid/Rogue has a Con score of 16, for a total of (8+4,5+4,5+9) 26 average hp.
The guy goes down to -1 hp on an average damage roll from the attack+constrict damage.

The crab has two claw attacks per turn if it can full attack.


A single Ray of Stupidity neutralize the encounter, naturally, but that doesn't prevent it from being a bit of a problem.
Vermin traits, ignores mind-affecting stuff.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Ah yes that Crab is excellent.


An otherwise dinky monster like a Goblin
as an NPC, is CR minus 2 to it's NPC class levels.
That gets the Super Gear MacGyver thing going.
(not that a Goblin would know what to do with it)

edit --- Kobolds get a CR -3, that's even better. 
Can someone say :  "Revenge Of Pun-Pun" ?!

Kobold Expert 1 gets the CR 1/4 slot.
Kobold Expert 2 gets the CR 1/3 slot.
?? for CR 1/2 ...
Petitioner former Caster X gets the CR 1 slot.
SS Shadow prog + any chance at all on weak targets, gets the CR 2 slot (because ??)
Monstrous Crab gets the CR 3 slot.
...
built Erudite 7 with recharge, gets the CR 7 slot (not 6 because it's plowing exp into repertoire)
...
built Wizard 15 gets the CR 14 slot ... you already knew that.

[zook1shoe]

here is a very unchallenging CR.

Anything incorporeal or swarm is tough when unprepared.... but incorporeal swarm is rough

[awaken_D_M_golem]

  ... I remember that.

I suppose we do need a bottom end distribution curve too.
iirc old wotc C.O. had the Psionic Sandwich, that auto-lost before round 1.
idk any details.

CR 17 could have a Triceratops 16+1hd / Adept 16, specific feats to get to Epic Spells
(personal fave of mine for quite a while now).


Orc Barb is cr 2 before figuring in the tiny swarm part (idk details).
Half Dragon has a minimum cr of 3.
But both are good ideas.


Best guess cr 1/2 ... would be a Commoner 1 with Chicken Infested flaw, plus something to turn those chickens into more dangerous stuff.

[zook1shoe]

not a lot of 3-1/8 HD creatures too.

Jarilith is pretty good for CR, from my cobwebbed mind.

Obviously, the Sharn is a solid front-runner. Throw on some templates? Things get even scarier.

Thinking about it.... There's def templates that are way under-CR'd.

[Shadowhunter]

This reminds me of something.... oh yes. About six years ago this was born.

Slow, Pathetic, Magebred Toads with Shape Soulmeld: Dissolving Spittle and random Feat that gives a point of essentia.
10 of them is CR 1.
Nothing like the "Amphibian Paraplegic Assault Brigade" to ruin your day.

[Kaelik]

Just seems really weird to see this thread be literally entirely about pulling CR shenanigans to the exclusion of using any actual monsters or anything that might be seen in any kind of actual game. I'd much rather see a list of monsters at different CRs that are tough fights, or pairs that work together well, rather than seeing a list of monsters with the largest HD with "non-associated" Cleric levels so they cast as Clerics of their CR or "Phaerim with X Sorcerer levels" at every CR.

[Shadowhunter]

Just seems really weird to see this thread be literally entirely about pulling CR shenanigans to the exclusion of using any actual monsters or anything that might be seen in any kind of actual game. I'd much rather see a list of monsters at different CRs that are tough fights, or pairs that work together well, rather than seeing a list of monsters with the largest HD with "non-associated" Cleric levels so they cast as Clerics of their CR or "Phaerim with X Sorcerer levels" at every CR.

To be fair, I at least did mention the fairly regular crab a few posts up

[zook1shoe]

Kaelik, how about you throw out your own suggestions for each CR, no one is stopping you.

And I have mentioned several un-templated and un-classed monsters.

Jarilith and hinted at the Ephemeral Swarm

[Amechra]

A Tarrasque Petitioner is CR 1. 

=---=

More seriously, the Drowned is a CR 8 Undead from MMIII that:

a) has 20 HD and fast healing 5. Oh, and Unholy Toughness, because why not?
b) has an aura of drowning.

It's fine if you can breath water (you can meet this thing in a desert...) or have a hefty con bonus (escalating con checks to not drown). Even then, it's a reasonably solid melee brute (two slam attacks with +12 to hit and 1d8+12 damage) that actively punishes you for being near it.

If you swapped out some of the feats (Alertness and Lightning Reflexes, at the very least) and stuck it in a confined area, you're probably looking at a TPK unless the DM telegraphs that you're going to need to be able to breath water. Then it's just going to be a bit of a rough fight.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Allip gets a lot of mention offsite for CR 3.  Allips don't actually know what they're doing, whereas the dumb-as-a-post Shadow does = much greater agency.

iirc it was FrankT who first discovered what the Crab can do as written.


We don't have a stat database for monsters, but we do have some average monster data.
(the Dreamscarred guys had a whole set of builds that were i.p.proofed to that as a part of their shtick)
I've seen a few Same Game Tests run.
It'd be nice to have a level by level pile of SGTs to run.

But yeah, median mean mode, drop the extremes, etc.
You can't lose a fight to a Sandwich that's already dead.

[geniussavant]

Adding casting class levels to an otherwise brutish monster nets some wonky results because of 1/2class level to cr. See oscelmos guide to monsters. Favorite examples include a giant casting grease under the party tank. One of the most memorable fights I ever ran as a dm was an ettin sorcerer and a stone giant wizard against a party that thought they would take the giant barbsrian and ettin fighter easily. The look on the party's faces when the stone giant began waggling his fingers and mumbling arcane spells was priceless.

[zook1shoe]

@awaken.... this psionic sandwich?

--

CR 4 for a Pyroclastic Wyoming, has an insta-kill breath weapon

--

In PFS, there's a couple brutal monsters I've run/fought. In a 1st level game (tier 1-2), our buddy got killed by a wight, had risen, and nearly killed another buddy. Another scenario i ran had a baddie that had 1 Con drain..... AT FIRST LEVEL!!! Talk about getting fucked right out of the gate.

They have at least one low level scenario that has a shadow, but at least PF made incorporeal at little more manageable.

[Tonymitsu]

More seriously, the Drowned is a CR 8 Undead from MMIII that:

a) has 20 HD and fast healing 5. Oh, and Unholy Toughness, because why not?
b) has an aura of drowning.

It's fine if you can breath water (you can meet this thing in a desert...) or have a hefty con bonus (escalating con checks to not drown). Even then, it's a reasonably solid melee brute (two slam attacks with +12 to hit and 1d8+12 damage) that actively punishes you for being near it.

If you swapped out some of the feats (Alertness and Lightning Reflexes, at the very least) and stuck it in a confined area, you're probably looking at a TPK unless the DM telegraphs that you're going to need to be able to breath water. Then it's just going to be a bit of a rough fight.

Eh... I think it only looks dangerous because it can't be turned by a typical appropriate level cleric. It's not really that bad...

The drowning aura has a very, very obvious visual effect. Even if the party doesn't identify the creature via a knowledge check, it's not that hard to assume what's about to happen. Remember that Water Breathing is not only on the spell list of every single core caster, but you can also affect as many creatures as you want with a single casting. Even someone with UMD even taking a scroll of it (375 gp) would make the combat go like this:

Round 1- The factotum says, "I spend my move action to pull out a scroll and then ready to cast it for when everyone to stands in a square adjacent to me, then I shout, 'Everyone surround me.'"
Anyone in the party who has to spends their initial move actions surrounding the factotum, he casts the spell and touches the tank, the cleric, the psion, himself, the druid, and the druid's pet.
"Okay guys, I had to divide that up between all of us, so we have an hour to kill this now."

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Why yes that sandwich, but I misremembered what it did.


Drowned is CR 8 and wow, did not know about that one.
Sharn is CR 8, but adding CR +1 per level of Mystic Theurge is even tastier.
 "Amphibian Paraplegic Assault Brigade" ha funny, perhaps a CR 1/2 or lower version?
Jarilith is CR 13, hmm I'll defer to your experience.

Pyroclastic Wyrmling is CR 4 ... I hate to argue r.a.i. 
but did they really intend so brutal a save-or-die?
The wording seems a little wonky or even off ,
like a descriptive in the real rules text.
(not that I mind, see Divine Mind The Planes Aura)

Presumeably my Triceratops can be done by
a dumpster dive for a CR 5 Fey with 17 hd.
(it was just where/when I first got the visuals)


** biffed a quote on to next post **