Min/Max challenge - Lowest level melee build to beat a Balor?

[Vasja]

Ring of Anticipation for 6k lets you roll twice for 6k. If you go the cheesy shuriken route, an eager (+2) warning (+5) shuriken costs like 360 gp or so. Sandals of Vagabond (+2) for 4k.

Question - can you get enough HP to survive the death throes? ECL 8 = (49 + 8 * Con), which means you'd need a 24 Con to survive.

Edit: Also, completely wowed by these boards. ECL 8? I didn't think it could be done before 10, and even then with some serious difficulty .

[Nachofan99]

Since "BaB users" (with optimization) look like* they solo Balors at 8th level more than 50% of the time, does that count as Mundanes being "Good Enough" against Team Monster?

*Oh.  Forgot about the explosion.  How do we deal with that?

[Mixster]

If you're taking 1 level of Fighter, did you factor in the +2 Initiative from Hit and Run Fighter ACF from Drow of the Underdark?  That would put you right at +11 Initiative with no significant changes at all.  Belt of Battle is an obvious include if it's affordable at this level; I can't recall.

I went ahead and threw in the Hit and Run comment there. But yes, Belt of Battle, and even an Eager (or is it warning?) Dagger in the off hand for another +7 to initiative.

Details details. It's put together well enough to say ECL 8 can do it so that's done. I was thinking of level 6 when I started posting it but Vaulting is like 20k and needed 8th level WBL to afford it. Then when I got to the number crunch I realized I didn't even need it. Maybe later I'll try for level 6 again.

Grab a level of Factotum, a wand-chamber and UMD some nerveskitter?

---
Do I have to be a mundane Melee? Or do I just need to kill Mr. Balor in melee? I was thinking of doing this with a cleric.

[archangel.arcanis]

How much would a contingent Dim. Door cost?  If it is cheap enough you should be able to use it to clear the blast area after the beat down.

[Vasja]

*Oh.  Forgot about the explosion.  How do we deal with that?

Since that guy is dragonborn...
Switch 18 Dex to 18 Con, +4 from dragonborn. +2 from levels and we are good. Dex drops to 10 or so, but if we remove vaulting like SorO said we have like 10k or so more gold so we can afford a warning dagger (which puts us back at +11). If we go cheesy shuriken then we have this in the bag (+15, roll twice gives us around an 88%* chance of victory).

*opposed rolls are a bit weird, so just a +4 bumps us up pretty high.

Edit: oops, forgot that factotum level. If nerveskitter goes off we win forever. Or just for silliness, take a level of wizard with a hummingbird familiar. Sure hope it can survive death throes 
Edit 2: Oh dear god it can. 1/2 master's HP but Improved Evasion means this beast of a hummingbird would tank the explosion and live. I really want to see a tiny bird survive a massive explosion like this in real life.

[Nachofan99]

A level of Wizard for Hummingbird familiar does nothing I'm pretty sure, because we already have Imp Init.  We're not an elf so we wouldn't qualify for the bonus from Elven Generalist.

If we rolled maximum HP we would survive automatically so that's kind of funny.  Of course, surviving with average HP is the goal.  Dragonborn Water Orc spent all his point buy on Str/Dex so we end up with a base Con of...14?  I guess with Rage that takes us to Con 18.  32HP from Con, 6d10, 1d12 and 1 more d12 maximized because the last/first levels don't matter - that's 52 more HP from HD.  90HP is pretty close to 100 - in fact we're at exactly -10 so any kind of buff or item would be enough to survive, bleeding on the ground let alone still be ambulatory.

Should be easy enough to get 1HP just to say you survived it.

Edit: 1 Level of Crusader would work.  You healing strike for 2 and have delayed damage pool of 5, so that's like having 19HP instead of 12HP for first level.
2nd Edit: Since you have pounce and are attacking multiple times, you get to heal a 2nd time maybe.  Should be fine.

[SorO_Lost]

Risky
Dragon Born Water Half-Orc
Base Abilities (PB 32): Str 16+1+4+4, Dex 18, Con 12+4+4, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 8 (while raging).
Paladin 5 / Lion Totem Barbarian 1
Feats (two flaws, one trait): Aggressive, Battle Jump, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Initiative, Shock Trooper.
Equipment (WBL 13,000gp)
   +1 Valorous Halberd (8,310gp)
   Wand of Waithstrike, 1 charge (15gp)
   Wand of Guidance of the Avatar, 1 charge (90gp) x 3
   Single +1 Eager Warning Shuriken (366.2gp)
   4038.8gp left over.
Initiative: +17 = 4 (feat) + 2 (eager) + 5 (warning) + 4 (dex) + 2 (aggressive)
Damage: +35 = 7 (str+thf) + 15 (charging smite) + 12 (pa6+thf) + 1 (enhance)
Modifier: x4 (dive + battle jump + valorous)
Attack: +12/+7 touch melee (4d10+140), 294 avg after DR if both hit putting the Balor at -4 (helpless).

Risky's plan is to solo Balors during a weekend to power level and though his contacts in his Church of Heironous and his remaining gold he sets up a bet. The terms are simple, I bet you I can beat a Balor. He UMDs the skill boosting wand while the summoning spell is being cast there by ensuring his UMD check for Waithstrike works without fail. For the fight it's self he charges in and uses both his Smite Evils and hits the Balor so hard he falls over. Knock out in one round. But the Balor didn't die yet so no big boom, instead the Balor is at -4 HP, a 60% chance he'll die if left alone. Risky simply walks away and chucks stuff at him until the Balor explodes.

[Tshern]

Since that guy is dragonborn...
Switch 18 Dex to 18 Con, +4 from dragonborn. +2 from levels and we are good. Dex drops to 10 or so, but if we remove vaulting like SorO said we have like 10k or so more gold so we can afford a warning dagger (which puts us back at +11). If we go cheesy shuriken then we have this in the bag (+15, roll twice gives us around an 88%* chance of victory).

+2 from Dragonborn.

[Nachofan99]

Risky
Dragon Born Water Half-Orc
Base Abilities (PB 32): Str 16+1+4, Dex 12, Con 18+4+4, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 8 (while raging).
Paladin 5 / Lion Totem Barbarian 1
Feats (two flaws): Battle Jump, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Initiative, Shock Trooper.
Equipment (WBL 13,000gp)
   +1 Gloryborn Valorous Halberd (8,910gp)
   Wand of Waithstrike, 1 charge (15gp)
   Single +1 Eager Warning Shuriken (366.2gp)
   3,708.8gp left over.
Initiative: +12 = 4 (feat) + 2 (eager) + 5 (warning) + 1 (dex)
Damage: +36 = 7 (str+thf) + 15 (charging smite) + 12 (pa6+thf) + 1 (glory) + 1 (enhance)
Modifier: x4 (dive + battle jump + valorous)
Attack: +12/+7 touch melee (4d10+144), 302 avg after DR if both hit putting the Balor at -12 (dead).

Risky's plan is to solo Balors during a weekend to power level and though his contacts in his Church of Heironous and his remaining gold he sets up a bet. The terms are simple, I bet you I can kill a Balor. A clause of Raise Dead on Risky if the Balor dies is tossed in. On after charging the Balor detonates dealing 100 fire damage to the area. Risky dies but for killing his foe he is awarded two stars worth of XP, in an attempt to find a number say Risky is level 13 and give him 46,800XP though he deserves so much more. This makes him level 11 (almost lv12), and if Raised he loses a level and becomes level 10. A level 10s WBL is 49,000gp and so excusably he makes most of that though the bets and he pays off the diamond fee for raising him. Risky rejoins the party the next day four levels higher than everyone else and is pretty happy with him self. Or he rolled poorly and died. 

Edit
Hell I'm killing him anyway, less con more dex. +3 more to Initiative.
Also, drop Gloryborn. Now the Balor is at -4 HP. Just attack and flee, then start chucking rocks at it until it explodes. You won anyway.

I was going to mention that part about "gaming the sytem" so you only put the Balor negative, instead of killing it, so you just walk away and let it detonate.  Super cool.

This, however, is the best part:

Risky rejoins the party the next day four levels higher than everyone else and is pretty happy with him self. Or he rolled poorly and died. 

While the caster is taking a day off to regain spells and craft, the melee guy is getting 4 levels.  Seems fair 

[Maat Mons]

Risky dies but for killing his foe he is awarded two stars worth of XP, in an attempt to find a number say Risky is level 13 and give him 46,800XP though he deserves so much more. This makes him level 11 (almost lv12), and if Raised he loses a level and becomes level 10.

It really doesn't matter what the number is. 

If, for some extraordinary reason, a character's XP reward from a single adventure would be enough to advance two or more levels at once, he or she instead advances one level and gains enough XP to be 1 XP short of the next level.

[JaronK]

Not technically melee, but I really like "throw a rock at it" as a solution:

Lolth Touched Half Minotaur Goliath Fighter 4/Mountain Rage Barbarian 1/Hulking Hurler 3/War Hulk 1 (ECL 12, or 11 with paydown)
Racial Stats:  +22 Str, -4 Dex, +14 Con, -2 Int, +2 Wis, +4 Natural Armor, Large, Track Feat, Darkvision 60', Scent, Movement 40', +2 on Search, Spot, and Listen, +4 Hide and Move Silently, Immune to Fear, 1d8 Gore, Always know north and +4 to escape Maze, Mountain Movement, +2 Sense Motive

Stats (32 point buy):  Str 48, Dex 12, 28 Con, 6 Int, 10 Wis, 6 Cha, Initiative +14 (Str 54 and Con 32 during rage)
Feats (2 Flaws): 1:  Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Rocks), Far Shot 2: Brutal Throw 3:  Cleave 4:  Weapon Specialization (Rocks) 6:  Improved Initiative 9:  Ranged Weapon Mastery: Bludgeoning
Hurl Tricks: Overburdened Heave (can throw up to medium load), Meteor Strike (Deals extra damage equal to twice strength bonus on hit)
Gear:  Belt of Giant Strength +4 and Battle (28kgp), +1 Morphing Shuriken of Warning and Initiative (646 gp, turned into knee blade)

Throw Rocks during rage:  +29 for (599d6+81), range increment 70',

To avoid the explosion, he's going to throw his rock at the Balor from 130' away (-2 penalty to hit for range) while raging (makes him huge).  His medium load in Mountain Rage is 119296lbs, so that's the weight of the rock he throws.  In case he misses, he uses his Belt of Battle to throw a second rock.  Hopefully his initiative of +14 is sufficient.  I know, this is silly, but I really wanted to just squish the big guy with a rock.  Honestly he doesn't really need so many Hulking Hurler levels (obviously the damage is plenty without Meteor Strike or Overburdened Heave) or the War Hulk level, but he did need to get Ranged Weapon Mastery to actually hit at such long ranges (I could have been even more silly and used Martial Monk 2 for the RWM and Weapon Supremacy).

JaronK

[SorO_Lost]

It really doesn't matter what the number is. 

If, for some extraordinary reason, a character's XP reward from a single adventure would be enough to advance two or more levels at once, he or she instead advances one level and gains enough XP to be 1 XP short of the next level.

Really? I thought that was a paperwork rule. ~Go home and work on your character on your own time.

Fixed my post though. ECL 6, but bets on +15 Initiative winning (vs +11) and +7 hits AC 16. It's not a guaranteed win but still, it's still getting around that 50% chance the CR system claims if the build were 14 levels higher.

[Halinn]

Not technically melee, but I really like "throw a rock at it" as a solution:

Lolth Touched Half Minotaur Goliath Fighter 4/Mountain Rage Barbarian 1/Hulking Hurler 3/War Hulk 1 (ECL 12, or 11 with paydown)
Racial Stats:  +22 Str, -4 Dex, +14 Con, -2 Int, +2 Wis, +4 Natural Armor, Large, Track Feat, Darkvision 60', Scent, Movement 40', +2 on Search, Spot, and Listen, +4 Hide and Move Silently, Immune to Fear, 1d8 Gore, Always know north and +4 to escape Maze, Mountain Movement, +2 Sense Motive

Stats (32 point buy):  Str 48, Dex 12, 28 Con, 6 Int, 10 Wis, 6 Cha, Initiative +14 (Str 54 and Con 32 during rage)
Feats (2 Flaws): 1:  Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Rocks), Far Shot 2: Brutal Throw 3:  Cleave 4:  Weapon Specialization (Rocks) 6:  Improved Initiative 9:  Ranged Weapon Mastery: Bludgeoning
Hurl Tricks: Overburdened Heave (can throw up to medium load), Meteor Strike (Deals extra damage equal to twice strength bonus on hit)
Gear:  Belt of Giant Strength +4 and Battle (28kgp), +1 Morphing Shuriken of Warning and Initiative (646 gp, turned into knee blade)

Throw Rocks during rage:  +29 for (599d6+81), range increment 70',

To avoid the explosion, he's going to throw his rock at the Balor from 130' away (-2 penalty to hit for range) while raging (makes him huge).  His medium load in Mountain Rage is 119296lbs, so that's the weight of the rock he throws.  In case he misses, he uses his Belt of Battle to throw a second rock.  Hopefully his initiative of +14 is sufficient.  I know, this is silly, but I really wanted to just squish the big guy with a rock.  Honestly he doesn't really need so many Hulking Hurler levels (obviously the damage is plenty without Meteor Strike or Overburdened Heave) or the War Hulk level, but he did need to get Ranged Weapon Mastery to actually hit at such long ranges (I could have been even more silly and used Martial Monk 2 for the RWM and Weapon Supremacy).

JaronK

With hulking hurler, just get the ability to aim for the square the Balor is in. AC 5 is quite a bit easier to hit.

[Rebel7284]

Technically mountain rage makes you large from whatever size you were before. >_>

Most DMs would houserule it to increase by one category instead though.

[Vicerious]

With 290 hp your going to need at least 2 attacks of 160 points of damage each.  And its not that hard to hit a Balor.  In a recent adventure our party encountered a level 35 CR whose AC was 52 (My toon was the best melee fighter in the bunch with 5 attacks starting at +44) and our easy solution to this was have the cleric cast brilliant weapon on us.  So just use a Brilliant weapon and ignore all that armor. 

Now just figure out how to 160 points of damage on an attack and you're golden. 

Its kinda funny this thread came up as our party is facing a Pit Fiend this weekend.

Minor nitpick, but brilliant energy only ignores armor and shield bonuses to AC. Since the balor's AC is 35 (-1 size, +7 Dex, +19 natural), brilliant energy won't help any.

[JaronK]

With hulking hurler, just get the ability to aim for the square the Balor is in. AC 5 is quite a bit easier to hit.

True.  It's two rolls (you could miss on a 1, he could make his save on a 20), but the chance is still better than a straight roll to hit.  Drop the extra 2X Str to damage (it really doesn't matter with the number of d6s you're rolling) for that ability.  Note that it's against AC 10, not 5 (as a result of the ability itself)... not that that matters much, obviously.

BTW: I tried to do this with Kobold cheese (using the draconic aging effect rules by RAW that give them colossal size and the dragonblood subsitution Cleric 9 for the huge BAB bump) but it turns out the penalty to hit is just too much.  So, that way doesn't really work, despite the crazy cheese.

JaronK

[caelic]

Are we avoiding massive cheese like, say, Divine Minions and Festering Anger?

[SorO_Lost]

Are we avoiding massive cheese like, say, Divine Minions and Festering Anger?

idk, submit it anyway.

So far we've got
12: Hulking Hurler by JaronK
6: Partial charged Wands and shuriken by SorO
Right?

And maybe
?: Festering Anger by Caelic.

[caelic]

Actually, I'm more inclined towards Divine Minion, which I think would also come in around level 6 (5 with buyoff).  Something like:

Divine Minion Human Warblade 5

Using a magic item of Enhance Wildshape, he assumes the form of a Shambling Mound.

Using an item which can reliably do a small amount of Electrical damage, he boosts his Con to truly monstrous levels.

Assuming the DM rules a shambling mound can wield a weapon (no reason it shouldn't be able to, since it's more-or-less humanoid in form) one-shot the Balor with an Insightful Strike.

The main obstacles are, again, attack roll and initiative--but since we don't have to take any kind of penalty for Power Attack, a wand chambered Wraithstrike should work pretty well for purposes of attacking.  Initiative becomes the main issue.

The benefit to this approach, of course, is that you'll shrug off the explosion afterwards.

 

[Endarire]

A Dragonborn Warforged surrounded by a silence pre-buff is immune to blasphemy and stunning.  He can also fly and deal damage as such:

x2 from Battle Jump
x2 from Valorous
x2 from Dragonborn's Dive
x2 from a Halbert of Vaulting (and if you can swing it, turn it into a +1 Valorous Lance of Vaulting)
x2 from Spirited Charge (if mounted)
x2 from using a lance while mounted
Lots of pain from Power Attack and Leap Attack.  Shock Trooper may help.