Unearthed Arcana: Double Trouble (Rogue + Ranger)

[Wilb]

Here we go!

Bad news, its Old ranger stuff.

EDIT: It has a grok it up sidebar but...

Wow Sudden strike returns, only this time it is overpowered instead of being something that happened once or twice a campaign!

[SorO_Lost]

Goddamn 5th is such a 4th incarnate.

Like Distant Strike should portray the idea of being able to freely teleport 10ft whenever you want which would be fun to use in game. Corvo blink! But instead it's all like you can teleport 10ft between attacks, and attack a 3rd guy, attack attack attack!

There is more to a real D&D game than pure combat.

[vaz]

Lol @ infinite healing on Ranger

[TenaciousJ]

Those rangers are unimpressive.  I'll give them marks for trying to come up with alternatives to Hunter's Mark, except they stack with Hunter's Mark, reducing the effectiveness of the fix.

The Scout rogue is really good.  I disagree that Sudden Strike is overpowered.  The 2nd Sneak Attack needs to meet the criteria for Sneak Attack without the benefit of being able to use a bonus action to help set up the 1st or 2nd Sneak Attack.  So without being able to hide, the rogue must have advantage and/or a flanking partner on each target.  That's not impossible by any means but it's also not going to happen every turn.

[Wilb]

Those rangers are unimpressive.  I'll give them marks for trying to come up with alternatives to Hunter's Mark, except they stack with Hunter's Mark, reducing the effectiveness of the fix.

The Scout rogue is really good.  I disagree that Sudden Strike is overpowered.  The 2nd Sneak Attack needs to meet the criteria for Sneak Attack without the benefit of being able to use a bonus action to help set up the 1st or 2nd Sneak Attack.  So without being able to hide, the rogue must have advantage and/or a flanking partner on each target.  That's not impossible by any means but it's also not going to happen every turn.

Yes, Sudden strike is not that OP, but it is a spike whenever it happens. If you have a dedicated "flanking" partner, it may force enemies to spread. And you have to admit it is an upgrade to the 3.5 ninja one.

[TenaciousJ]

It is better than 3.5 Sudden Strike.  At 17th, level what's going onto the attack besides weapon damage plus Sneak Attack dice?  There's no Booming Blade synergy because Sudden Strike requires the attack action.  There's no GWM.  Sharpshooter is a possibility, but you'll need advantage from an external source to help with the penalty.  Using the ranged weapons a rogue is proficient in, that's still only going to be 1d8+10d6+15 on 2 targets for an average of 54.5 per target, or 109 in one turn, assuming a light crossbow with Crossbow Expert.  That's nothing to sneeze at, but in the scope of everything that can be done by players at level 17+, it's hardly game-breaking.

If that damage could be directed at the 1 target instead of 2, I'd be more inclined to say it obsoletes other rogues at that level.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

How many different Rangers does UA have now?  I mean it like Index style.

4/6/15 Modifying Classes ... has 3 bullet points, and Spell-less
9/9/15 Ranger ... has 5 levels and extra fluff
11/2/15 Light Dark Underdark ... has the Deep Stalker
9/12/16 Ranger, revised ... a considerable upgrade
1/16/17 Ranger and Rogue ... this thread

I'm forgetting which others had a fighting style or two, that works with Ranger.

[TenaciousJ]

Waterborne has the Mariner fighting style that gives +1 AC in light or medium armor with a climb and a swim speed.

Underdark has Tunnel Fighter for the stance that allows unlimited opportunity attacks and Close Quarters Shooter to give +1 to ranged attacks and to remove disadvantage for firing at an enemy within 5 feet.  Both seem to have been incorporated into the fighter UA in the Knight and Sharpshooter respectively.

UA ranger has 5 archetypes between what it was in the revision and the latest one: Beast, Hunter, Deep Stalker, Horizon Walker, and Primeval Guardian.  The PHB ranger has all those plus spell-less.  Fighter still has more UA archetypes than ranger, interestingly.

[SorO_Lost]

Fighter still has more UA archetypes than ranger, interestingly.

5th is still trying real hard to make the fighter better than the wizard through.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

thx TenJ ... I'm certainly not up to a (sub-) Surreal Dex for 5e UA.

But it would be nice to have it all arranged rather like the PHB (as a for instance).


_{maybe my kitty avatar is nominating me, which my kitty avatar's Tail  thinks is rather humorous.}

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Fighter still has more UA archetypes than ranger, interestingly.

5th is still trying real hard to make the fighter better than the wizard through.

  ... suddenly I'm thinking of Anakin vs Obi Wan who ~says  "don't try it (wotc)".

[TenaciousJ]

Fighter still has more UA archetypes than ranger, interestingly.

5th is still trying real hard to make the fighter better than the wizard through.

They're going to have to inflate the power on new fighter archetypes severely then.  Fighter is a good class, but that's a pipe dream.  So far only bard is close to challenging wizard for supremacy in 5e, and that's with a core archetype.

[SorO_Lost]

I didn't even know the wizard was still holding the caster-sided supremacy, I thought Bards already stole it

[TenaciousJ]

Bard does it with tools taken from the wizard via Magical Secrets.  The wizard still has a theoretical versatility advantage at the highest levels because of the nature of a spellbook vs. spells known.

In practical application, I'd say they're even, but maybe I need competent players of both classes to push the limits when I'm DMing to make a better judgement.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Lore vs Wiz ... might have to add in Cleric w Arcana, and maybe even Arcana Domain Wizard.
And a short discussion about whether Bard retraining works with Magical Secrets.

[TenaciousJ]

Lore vs Wiz ... might have to add in Cleric w Arcana, and maybe even Arcana Domain Wizard.
And a short discussion about whether Bard retraining works with Magical Secrets.

RAW, bards can only retrain spells into bard spells.  In other words, a retrained Magical Secret would be turned into a spell from the bard list.

[Krika]

So....it looks like the Guardian Ranger can go in and out of Guardian Soul form pretty much at will.

And with the Ancient Fortitude feature, your current hit points increase when you enter GS form, but stay the same when you leave.

So it looks like at level 7 Rangers can, over the course of a minute or two, pretty much heal up to full at no cost.

This seems broken.

[sambojin]

For me it's the "Your reach increases by 5 feet" part. Handy with anything, but especially with feats like Polearm Master, Sentinel, and polearms themselves. Not broken, but that's gotta be one of the best +thingy things I've seen in 5th. The 5-foot movement isn't too hard to overcome, but that reach thing is a pretty open statement on how lots of stuff "normally" works.

Tree-Bear possible perhaps? Or the squidgiest squid that ever reached out and restrained someone? Freaking fangiest firesnake fist f'ing from fangled fir-trees? Or just big pointy sticks? It's all good.

Not broken, but cool as.

[TenaciousJ]

Add bugbear to that.  20 ft. range in tree form during your own turn.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Custom exotic weapon Staff+Whip dual weapon, to get I-am- -Groot going on.