Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z

[oslecamo]

New thread for general discussion and suggestions for Super Robot Wars d20 material since the old one got too big.

[CKirk]

With the change to conscience spirit, is it intended that you can only use the cost reduction with out of class spirits? As it stands, all possible targets (except Revival) are Ship Captain, but Conscience Androids are Supers

[oslecamo]

Conscience Android only counts as a super for mecha progression, not for spirits.

Anyway yeah half price is still a huge discount, so even with a 20% extra it's still a big saving.

[Anomander]

Here's the list, actually. Still lots of options.

(click to show/hide)

Aid
Alignment
Attune
Bless
Bonds
Cheer
Cloak
Disturbance
Dream
Enable
Faith
Fierce Fight
Fortune
Hope
Huge Encouragement
Invincibility
Mercy (self-buff but technically also affects enemies)
Prayer (situational)
Provoke
Rally
Resupply
Revival
Scan
Substitute
Taunt
Trust

[CKirk]

Here's the list, actually. Still lots of options.

(click to show/hide)

Aid
Alignment
Attune
Bless
Bonds
Cheer
Cloak
Disturbance
Dream
Enable
Faith
Fierce Fight
Fortune
Hope
Huge Encouragement
Invincibility
Mercy (self-buff but technically also affects enemies)
Prayer (situational)
Provoke
Rally
Resupply
Revival
Scan
Substitute
Taunt
Trust

Cloak only targets your own mech, so that's a no-go
Disturbance is a no go because you only get the discount when targeting your partner.
Invincibility is self only, so still no-go
Mercy doesn't target your partner, so nope
Prayer is self only
Provoke doesn't target partner
Scan doesn't target partner
Taunt doesn't target partner.

But fair enough, there were more than I remembered. That said, my claim was under the (mistaken) assumption that being a Conscience Android meant you were locked into Super spirits if you didn't want to pay 20% extra, so it's moot.

[Anomander]

Cloak affects enemies. They can no longer attack your mecha. Similar to how Provoke forces an enemy into attacking you if anything.
Disturbance affects you and your allies. To work with the discount it must not only be able affect you or your mecha. Even effects that can target another can be used on yourself provided that it could also have been used on someone else.
Invincibility wasn't meant to be there.
Mercy, as said, it feels like it qualifies but might not. It affects your next attack so it feels like a self buff much like other 'next attack' spirits do, but this one's actual result is a status effect on enemies. So I'm not sure.
Prayer, as said, is situational. Circumstance being if you are also a pilot in a combined mecha. If that's actually possible.
Provoke/Scan/Taunt - Not sure what makes you believe it has to affect only your partner to get the discount.

Thought afterward that I probably should have left the pilot class tag. That would have been more pertinent to your issue for reference.

[CKirk]

Cloak affects enemies. They can no longer attack your mecha. Similar to how Provoke forces an enemy into attacking you if anything.
Disturbance affects you and your allies. To work with the discount it must not only be able affect you or your mecha. Even effects that can target another can be used on yourself provided that it could also have been used on someone else.
Invincibility wasn't meant to be there.
Mercy, as said, it feels like it qualifies but might not. It affects your next attack so it feels like a self buff much like other 'next attack' spirits do, but this one's actual result is a status effect on enemies. So I'm not sure.
Prayer, as said, is situational. Circumstance being if you are also a pilot in a combined mecha. If that's actually possible.
Provoke/Scan/Taunt - Not sure what makes you believe it has to affect only your partner to get the discount.

Thought afterward that I probably should have left the pilot class tag. That would have been more pertinent to your issue for reference.

Conscience Spirit: At 4th, 7th and 9th level the Conscience Android learns a new Spirit. It only costs half spirit to use if used while adjacent or piloting the same mecha as her Conscience companion and targeting either of them. Spirits that can only affect you or your mecha do not benefit from this.

This text (emphasis mine) specifies why the above doesn't work. That said, you are correct on Disturbance. I was still thinking of it as it appears in the video games (-50% hit chance on all enemies). My mistake. Also my mistake on Prayer. I missed the bit where it let you target allies in a combined mech.

[Anomander]

Ah, correct. It must target either of them. My bad.

[oslecamo]

The complete translation for Super Robot Wars Gaiden-Masaki Lord of the Elementals was finished! For those of you who don't know, Masaki was the first original character of the franchise, although he only showed first in Super Robot Wars 2.

Interestingly enough it actually has somewhat more complex combat mechanics than later titles like facing actually matters. Nice music too.

And gotta love the plot start:

(click to show/hide)

Masaki:So you're saying the Earth is hollow and there's this secret kingdom inside. Let me guess, I've been summoned to be the hero and save the day by fulfilling some ancient prophecy?
Tytti: Wow, how did you figure it all out? Is this kind of thing common in this Japan country where you came from?

[Fzzr]

So, we're working on sample character sheets for a certain recently concluded mecha anime, and we have a suggestion/request: Can there be some more accessible way to get a subpilot? Spirits only, and cannot swap pilot mid-battle. Examples that show up in SRW would be the Big O, Nirvash, Might Gaine, etc.

The obvious thing would be a Super Upgrade (probably quite expensive, and certainly only take once). Other limitations might make sense too, like being restricted to no more than one spirit a turn.

[oslecamo]

So, we're working on sample character sheets for a certain recently concluded mecha anime,

I suppose you're talking about Darling in the Franxx, not like there's that many mecha animes recently concluded and dual pilots only narrows it down.

and we have a suggestion/request: Can there be some more accessible way to get a subpilot? Spirits only, and cannot swap pilot mid-battle. Examples that show up in SRW would be the Big O, Nirvash, Might Gaine, etc.

The obvious thing would be a Super Upgrade (probably quite expensive, and certainly only take once). Other limitations might make sense too, like being restricted to no more than one spirit a turn.

I must confess that's a thing I've been considering basically since this project started. But as you point out, having a second set of spirits is quite a significant bonus and needs a significant price and/or limitations.

Then there's also the bit that it should not really be super-exclusive. There's been gundams with co-pilots in SRW too, like the Victory. I did the Helpful Automatic Robotic Operator feat half inspired in Uso who gets the Haro for extra spirits after all. In SRW J the main character has a subpilot regardless of going with a super or real. In W we have the Valhawk real starter with a co-pilot out of the bat.

So if anything I believe it should be something available to everybody, so probably a feat.


Secondary Subpilot[Pilot]
Most non-combiner mechas have a single pilot, but some have the radical idea of carrying a second pilot to help control the machine. The reason being that the second pilot is quite spirited but sucks at actually piloting.
Prerequisites: Must have Cha 13+, cannot have Spirit Regen, Real Rank, Soul System, Helpful Robotic Operator, companions, followers, familiars nor cohorts.
Bonus: You gain a Subpilot built as either a Real Pilot or Super Pilot of your level (or combination), except they don't get their own mecha, must also take Secondary Subpilot except they don't gain any benefit from it and take a -20 penalty on AC and all 1d20 rolls if they try to pilot a mecha on their own. They can ride in your mecha along you but the only action they can take is using their own spirits and cannot switch controls. You must also spend 8 hours every day bonding in some way with your subpilot (chatting, playing, sharing a hobby, mecha maintenance, house cleaning, shopping, etc) outside of combat or they'll refuse to ride the same mecha as you. Failure to spend the necessary time bonding means they refuse to ride in your mecha until you make up for the missing time.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, each extra one allows you to gain an extra subpilot as above but only one may ride with you in your mecha at a time. Switching them takes 8 hours to properly re-calibrate the secondary controls. The total bonding time doesn't increase, you can bond with multiple subpilots at the same time.

How does it sound?

EDIT: Added bonding time every day to maintain the subpilot(s).

[CKirk]

So, we're working on sample character sheets for a certain recently concluded mecha anime,

I suppose you're talking about Darling in the Franxx, not like there's that many mecha animes recently concluded and dual pilots only narrows it down.

and we have a suggestion/request: Can there be some more accessible way to get a subpilot? Spirits only, and cannot swap pilot mid-battle. Examples that show up in SRW would be the Big O, Nirvash, Might Gaine, etc.

The obvious thing would be a Super Upgrade (probably quite expensive, and certainly only take once). Other limitations might make sense too, like being restricted to no more than one spirit a turn.

I must confess that's a thing I've been considering basically since this project started. But as you point out, having a second set of spirits is quite a significant bonus and needs a significant price and/or limitations.

Then there's also the bit that it should not really be super-exclusive. There's been gundams with co-pilots in SRW too, like the Victory. I did the Helpful Automatic Robotic Operator feat half inspired in Uso who gets the Haro for extra spirits after all. In SRW J the main character has a subpilot regardless of going with a super or real. In W we have the Valhawk real starter with a co-pilot out of the bat.

So if anything I believe it should be something available to everybody, so probably a feat.


Secondary Subpilot[Pilot]
Most non-combiner mechas have a single pilot, but some have the radical idea of carrying a second pilot to help control the machine. The reason being that the second pilot is quite spirited but sucks at actually piloting.
Prerequisites: Must have Cha 13+, cannot have Spirit Regen, Real Rank, Soul System, Helpful Robotic Operator, companions, followers, familiars nor cohorts.
Bonus: You gain a Subpilot built as either a Real Pilot or Super Pilot of your level (or combination), except they don't get their own mecha, must also take Secondary Subpilot except they don't gain any benefit from it and take a -20 penalty on AC and all 1d20 rolls if they try to pilot a mecha on their own. They can ride in your mecha along you but the only action they can take is using their own spirits and cannot switch controls. You must also spend 8 hours every day bonding in some way with your subpilot (chatting, playing, sharing a hobby, mecha maintenance, house cleaning, shopping, etc) outside of combat or they'll refuse to ride the same mecha as you. Failure to spend the necessary time bonding means they refuse to ride in your mecha until you make up for the missing time.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, each extra one allows you to gain an extra subpilot as above but only one may ride with you in your mecha at a time. Switching them takes 8 hours to properly re-calibrate the secondary controls. The total bonding time doesn't increase, you can bond with multiple subpilots at the same time.

How does it sound?

EDIT: Added bonding time every day to maintain the subpilot(s).

I love it, but have a few issues with it.
SP Regen on subpilots (at least in the non-OG games) happens enough that I know a few off the top of my head (CC in Zero's Gawain, Mel in Rand's Gunleon).
My other issue is actually with the idea of SP Regen limited feats. Some feats (like this one!) are strong enough to compete with SP Regen, but the feat is just so strong that weaker exclusive feats (like HARO) are just not worth the opportunity cost. I don't know how it'll pan out now that we've changed our party to basically nothing but supers, but in the past with two real-derived classes, strike was absolutely necessary to hit anything, so not having SP Regen meant you had a very limited number of times you could hit things in a combat. One solution to this that we've discussed is to implement a system like the more recent SRW games (Z3 and later), where all pilots have an innate 5 SP Regen. This would mean that even without the feat you'd be able to build up to a Strike or Focus if you needed it, but it would take long enough to (in my view) not be overpowered. This could possibly also come with the feat itself being reduced to only provide 5 SP Regen (similar to Setsuna's Innovator unique skill), to ensure that spirits remain no more spammable than they are now.

[oslecamo]

Didn't really have the chance to play Z3 or anything later, but default 5 spirit regen for everybody sounds quite reasonable so implemented it accross the classes, in addition to reducing the Spirit Regen feat to just 5 per round. Also added Secondary Subpilot to the feats and buffed H.A.R.O. a bit.

[Fzzr]

I suppose you're talking about Darling in the Franxx, not like there's that many mecha animes recently concluded and dual pilots only narrows it down.

Not exactly a hard guess =P

Also, I made some copyedits edits to the text. Changes bolded.

Secondary Subpilot[Pilot]
Most non-combiner mechas have a single pilot, but some have the radical idea of carrying a second pilot to help control the machine. The reason being that the second pilot is quite spirited but sucks at actually piloting.
Prerequisites: Must have Cha 13+, cannot have Spirit Regen, Real Rank, Soul System, Helpful Robotic Operator, companions, followers, familiars nor cohorts.
Bonus: You gain a Subpilot built as either a Real Pilot or Super Pilot of your level (or combination), except they don't get their own mecha, must also take Secondary Subpilot except they don't gain any benefit from it and take a -20 penalty on AC and all 1d20 rolls if they try to pilot a mecha on their own. They can ride in your mecha along with you but the only action they can take is using their own spirits and they cannot switch controls. You must also spend 8 hours every day bonding in some way with your subpilot (chatting, playing, sharing a hobby, mecha maintenance, house cleaning, shopping, etc) outside of combat or they'll refuse to ride the same mecha as you. Failure to spend the necessary time bonding means they refuse to ride in your mecha until you make up for the missing time.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, each extra one allows you to gain an extra subpilot as above but only one may ride with you in your mecha at a time. Switching them takes 8 hours to properly re-calibrate the secondary controls. The total bonding time doesn't increase, you can bond with multiple subpilots at the same time.

How does it sound?

EDIT: Added bonding time every day to maintain the subpilot(s).

Bonding, eh? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Ironically that's basically perfect for every subpilot situation except DitF, because that requires the owner of the mecha to be the subpilot, at least the way we've been modeling it. Basically, the mecha belongs to the pistil, but the stamen pilots. This allows the stamen access to the pistil's maneuvers as well as their own. We're doing Zero Two, Hiro, and Strelizia as thought experiment. Having the pistil use spirits while the stamen pilots was an idea about how to model things like Ichigo coordinating the team etc. while being a subpilot. At the same time, the pistils can also technically pilot alone, it just goes poorly.

High level summary of the build(s): Zero Two (Super Pilot 8) has very aggressive feats and maneuvers (critfishing, lots of attacks), with Child Soldier features to double down on that. Hiro (Super Pilot 6) is built more for social (this is a model build after all, not minmaxed) and has lots of Everywhere You Go maneuvers. His Child Soldier stuff adds energy/EN regen mostly. Strelizia is built for Zero Two (Super Robot 8) as a generalist. The result should be a build that can both support and attack, but can only be really good at both with supports to make up for Hiro's subpar stats.

I don't mind if the actual feat added to the system doesn't cover this wacky edge case, though. DitF is... special. The concept is to demonstrate the idea of using someone else's mecha by design in order to remix builds without total character rebuilds. In this context, it shows the way you can get different results by changing the stamen for a given FRANXX. That still works without the original pilot providing spirits.

Edit: Also, the list of things mutually excluded between SP Regen, HARO etc. is getting pretty long. Maybe add a tag like [Extra] or [Spirit] or something and have them all exclude anything else with the same tag.

[oslecamo]

I suppose you're talking about Darling in the Franxx, not like there's that many mecha animes recently concluded and dual pilots only narrows it down.

Not exactly a hard guess =P

Also, I made some copyedits edits to the text. Changes bolded.

Secondary Subpilot[Pilot]
Most non-combiner mechas have a single pilot, but some have the radical idea of carrying a second pilot to help control the machine. The reason being that the second pilot is quite spirited but sucks at actually piloting.
Prerequisites: Must have Cha 13+, cannot have Spirit Regen, Real Rank, Soul System, Helpful Robotic Operator, companions, followers, familiars nor cohorts.
Bonus: You gain a Subpilot built as either a Real Pilot or Super Pilot of your level (or combination), except they don't get their own mecha, must also take Secondary Subpilot except they don't gain any benefit from it and take a -20 penalty on AC and all 1d20 rolls if they try to pilot a mecha on their own. They can ride in your mecha along with you but the only action they can take is using their own spirits and they cannot switch controls. You must also spend 8 hours every day bonding in some way with your subpilot (chatting, playing, sharing a hobby, mecha maintenance, house cleaning, shopping, etc) outside of combat or they'll refuse to ride the same mecha as you. Failure to spend the necessary time bonding means they refuse to ride in your mecha until you make up for the missing time.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, each extra one allows you to gain an extra subpilot as above but only one may ride with you in your mecha at a time. Switching them takes 8 hours to properly re-calibrate the secondary controls. The total bonding time doesn't increase, you can bond with multiple subpilots at the same time.

How does it sound?

EDIT: Added bonding time every day to maintain the subpilot(s).

Cleaned up, thanks.

Bonding, eh? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Ironically that's basically perfect for every subpilot situation except DitF, because that requires the owner of the mecha to be the subpilot, at least the way we've been modeling it.

You mentioned Big O, Nirvash, Might Gaine, of course I tried to go as generic as possible.

Basically, the mecha belongs to the pistil, but the stamen pilots. This allows the stamen access to the pistil's maneuvers as well as their own. We're doing Zero Two, Hiro, and Strelizia as thought experiment. Having the pistil use spirits while the stamen pilots was an idea about how to model things like Ichigo coordinating the team etc. while being a subpilot. At the same time, the pistils can also technically pilot alone, it just goes poorly.

High level summary of the build(s): Zero Two (Super Pilot 8) has very aggressive feats and maneuvers (critfishing, lots of attacks), with Child Soldier features to double down on that. Hiro (Super Pilot 6) is built more for social (this is a model build after all, not minmaxed) and has lots of Everywhere You Go maneuvers. His Child Soldier stuff adds energy/EN regen mostly. Strelizia is built for Zero Two (Super Robot 8) as a generalist. The result should be a build that can both support and attack, but can only be really good at both with supports to make up for Hiro's subpar stats.

I don't mind if the actual feat added to the system doesn't cover this wacky edge case, though. DitF is... special. The concept is to demonstrate the idea of using someone else's mecha by design in order to remix builds without total character rebuilds. In this context, it shows the way you can get different results by changing the stamen for a given FRANXX. That still works without the original pilot providing spirits.

Ok, thanks for being more specific (since the original show really isn't) about what you're looking for. You had mentioned it being a super upgrade, so how about this.

Darling Drive: The super robot's cockpit has an extra seat and customized controls that allows a secondary pilot to easily ride along and coordinate your talents to a degree. The main pilot can use the secondary pilot's maneuvers as if they were their own as well as one of the secondary pilot's ability scores if it would be better than their own. The secondary pilot may also use one of their spirits once per round. As an extra benefit this upgrade somehow draws in a robot-less super pilot of your super robot level-2 willing to serve as the secondary pilot (they cannot have leadership, companions/followers/similar nor any [Extra] feats).  You must also spend 8 hours every day bonding in some way with your subpilot (chatting, playing, sharing a hobby, mecha maintenance, house cleaning, shopping, etc) outside of combat or they'll refuse to ride the same mecha as you. Failure to spend the necessary time bonding means they refuse to ride in your mecha until you make up for the missing time. This upgrade costs 4 points and can only be taken once. Alternatively you may take it for 3 points, but in that case you take a -10 penalty to AC and all 1d20 rolls if somehow piloting a mecha alone.


Tentacle play counts as bonding, right?

Edit: Also, the list of things mutually excluded between SP Regen, HARO etc. is getting pretty long. Maybe add a tag like [Extra] or [Spirit] or something and have them all exclude anything else with the same tag.

Good idea, done as well.

[Fzzr]

Woohoo! Thanks, I'll finish up those sheets and post 'em here for fun.

Edit: Also, the list of things mutually excluded between SP Regen, HARO etc. is getting pretty long. Maybe add a tag like [Extra] or [Spirit] or something and have them all exclude anything else with the same tag.

Good idea, done as well.

Actually it was CKirk's idea.
Edit: Actually another of the players in our game.
Edit Edit: Also, just noticed that Darling Drive doesn't explicitly allow the secondary pilot to be the actual pilot of the mecha, though I think that would work implicitly given how mecha borrowing works. I guess it just needs to say that if the secondary pilot controls the mecha, the original pilot must be their secondary pilot instead.

[oslecamo]

Sheets always welcome for the NPC section (self-reminder to finish statting the getters based on Raineh's drafts).

Actually it was CKirk's idea.
Edit: Actually another of the players in our game.

Well you were still the one who actually posted it here. I can't use ideas from other people if I don't know they exist.

Edit Edit: Also, just noticed that Darling Drive doesn't explicitly allow the secondary pilot to be the actual pilot of the mecha, though I think that would work implicitly given how mecha borrowing works. I guess it just needs to say that if the secondary pilot controls the mecha, the original pilot must be their secondary pilot instead.

But for all but the second-to-last episode secondary pilots were stuck being secondary pilots and even then switching positions was only possible for the special ⑨s and gaaahh!

Just kidding, added Darling Drive to the super robot upgrades list with the clause that secondary pilots can take the main seat because why not.

[CKirk]

I'd just like to point out that Super Pilot still doesn't list the 5 innate SP Regen.

I'd also like to ask about Remote Sync (the new feat). If I'm an Innovade and I'm synched to my ally's mech, do they still get their turn in addition to the turn I take? Also, I assume that I can't given it doesn't say I can, but do my spirits work on a mech I'm synched to?

Furthermore, I'd like to ask if the Spirit Command Foresee (introduced in SRW V) could be implemented. It functions much as Attune does, but for Alert instead of Strike. Normally it costs 15 SP, but a few pilots (Jill from Cross Ange, Yazan from Zeta for some reason) have it for 10 SP.

[oslecamo]

Super pilot default spirit recover fixed.

Added clause that allied pilot in a synchronized mecha can't control their mecha anymore and that when you use a spirit that would affect your mecha you can use it in a synchronized one instead.

Foresee spirit added for 15 sp since the standard for "can use on allies" is usually +50% cost. And yes sometimes the SRW games just throw cheaper versions of specific spirits to some pilots (10 sp Atunne Alfimi I'm looking at you) "for some reason" but I'm not really sure of a balanced way to implement that when the players get to design their own pilots from scratch. In particular when one would probably cheese it out and apply any big discount to the big spirits like Zeal and Love.

[CKirk]

Super pilot default spirit recover fixed.

Added clause that allied pilot in a synchronized mecha can't control their mecha anymore and that when you use a spirit that would affect your mecha you can use it in a synchronized one instead.

Foresee spirit added for 15 sp since the standard for "can use on allies" is usually +50% cost. And yes sometimes the SRW games just throw cheaper versions of specific spirits to some pilots (10 sp Atunne Alfimi I'm looking at you) "for some reason" but I'm not really sure of a balanced way to implement that when the players get to design their own pilots from scratch. In particular when one would probably cheese it out and apply any big discount to the big spirits like Zeal and Love.

Thanks! The "For some reason" bit was more aimed specifically at Yazan. Helping allies isn't exactly something he's known for, you know?