Gestalt Build Ideas (Thrallherd + Fusion Optimization)

[patha787]

THE CONCEPT: Three+ characters in one.

Friends,

I'm about to start a 20th level high-powered gestalt campaign. All official sources (including Dragon and online WotC) are available and the DM is lenient (but fair) and experienced. The campaign is a bit of a lark and we're not taking things too seriously so the insanity behind this idea isn't going to ruin anyone's fun.

THE PLAYER CHARACTER (approved by DM)
Human male Factotum 8/Chameleon 2/Psionic Swiftblade 10//Spell to Power Erudite 10/Thrallherd 10
Intelligence based SAD, and between psionics and Factotum/Swiftblade, there is no such thing as action economy, and I have access to 9th level powers and 8th level spells (9th if cheese/abuse used). Plus access to all the usual psionic trickery (Supernatural Manifestation, infinite PP, etc). Used responsibly, of course.

HOUSERULES:
Swiftblade is a psionic variant negotiated with the DM and the pre-reqs have been met etc.
Gestalt allows prestige class progression on both sides
Dual caster PrCs may be negotiated with DM approval

I was originally going to go Mind Mage (from Dragon) on the other side but ended up going Thrallherd instead.

THE EVIL PLAN
Use Fusion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/fusion.htm) to fuse myself with my two optimized (tier 1ish) thralls and a metamind with temporal reiteration to make the fusion last on a 24/7 basis.

WHERE I NEED HELP/IDEAS
How should I build my thralls/followers?

- I need a Metamind to make Fusion last 24/7
- They need to be corporeal, living creatures in order to be fused
- NB: They're gestalt characters of appropriate level.

Apart from that, it's a free for all.

BASIC BRAINSTORMING - remember, thralls are gestalt too; these character types/ideas can (and probably should) be combined.
1. Another Intelligence based caster type
- Wizard? Incantatrix? Shadowcraft Mage? Dweomerkeeper? A combination of Tainted Scholar with Subverted Psion for immunity to taint and ridiculous taint-based casting? Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil?
- Archivist with Academic Priest feat to make SAD?
- Binder/Anima Mage?
- Metamind? Another StP Erudite? Psion?
- Psionic Artificer?
- Wu Jen?

2. A Wisdom based caster type
- CoDzilla?
- Planar Shepherd?
- Ruby Knight Vindicator?
- Dweomerkeeper?
- Metamind/Ardent?

3. Miscellaneous
- LA race buy offs with natural spellcasting abilities or huge ability boosts

THE REQUEST/SUMMARY
Friends, optimizers, gamers, lend me your ideas.

Essentially, what we're building is a sextuple gestalt character, being the combined amalgam of three separate gestalt characters. More if other creatures (followers) are fused as well - the potential is infinite.

I look forward to hearing from you - thanks in advance to those who respond.

[patha787]

Having given it further thought, I'm thinking I'd like to make the thralls something along the lines of:

1st Thrall: An Elan (so that I take on its racial abilities and never have to sleep - this lets me keep Fusion up 24/7 and doesn't have a level adjustment; I'm also effectively immortal/unaging) divine caster on one side with Ruby Knight Vindicator thrown in//arcane caster or psionic manifester build. In an ideal world this would have WIS or CHA as the primary stat and be as SAD as possible (Fusion grants me the best ability scores of all my fused creatures, so it's better if my fused thralls have different primary stats). However, I need to fit Metamind in somewhere in one of the thralls to make the whole trick work. A Theurge of some kind perhaps?

2nd Thrall: An elf Revenant Blade/Eternal Blade or similar pouncing TWF power attack build with double scimitar//Shadow Pouncer build on the other side. The ideal goal of this character is multiple full attacks per round (each with as many attacks as possible) through shadow pouncing with massive power attack damage on top. No Frenzied Berserker as it'll limit my ability to use the myriad of spells/powers at my disposal. Primary STR, secondary DEX?

In an ideal world with something along these lines, I'd end up with a final fused character that had 9th level manifesting with all the psionic trickery, 8th level arcane spells which can be cast as powers, 9th level divine casting (in the case of Archivists, from any list) and DMM: Persist, possibly 9th level separate Arcane casting or additional psionic PP/powers/Metamind goodness if going that route, a ridiculous number/strength of melee attacks if I choose to enter melee, good overall HP/skill points/BAB/saves and three different high ability scores (likely INT, STR and probably either WIS or CHA).

Above all this, I'd have four separate ways to overcome action economy and make use of all my insane abilities:
1. "3.0 Haste" from Swiftblade
2. Psionic Schism/Hustle/Temporal Acceleration etc.
3. RKV - convert turn attempts into extra swift actions
4. Cunning Surge, which will likely be kept in reserve.

Thoughts?

Also, followers will likely be Red Wizards or similar (for Circle Magic).

SIDENOTE:
I know it's unrelated to min/maxing and all the optimization madness, but I really like the concept/roleplay possibilities of this character too. I'm imagining someone that's probably quite deranged from having to consistently cope with the strain of harboring these multiple personalities within himself (not to mention the experience/knowledge of the ancestors of the elven Revenant Blade if going that route). Lots of depth and variety to play with.

[Psithief]

Why would you want to fuse? Doing so cuts your actions per round to a third of what they would be.

[patha787]

How so? Are you referring to the fact that it's a single character as opposed to three (and thus three sets of separate actions)?

If so, for RP purposes (and keeping track of actions/characters etc) I'd rather control a single combined character.

I'd have enough ways of breaking the action economy to use the powers/class features I desire.

[Mixster]

How is this working with temporal reiteration again? It takes off one round, are you aiming to manifest it each round, using a swift action and 9 PP?

[Shadowmind]

How is this working with temporal reiteration again? It takes off one round, are you aiming to manifest it each round, using a swift action and 9 PP?

Metamind gives unlimited PP for 10 rounds. Use that to manifest Temporal Reiteration. PP spent=0. Combine with any ability that has a duration for super persist, in exchange for all your swift actions. Fit RKV into the build to reclaim swift actions if needed by spending turn/rebuke undead. If Persist Power wasn't 3rd party the the trick isn't needed.

[Mixster]

Temporal Reiteration only gives +1 round to any duration, so if you manifest it every round for a minute, you get +10 rounds.

Are you using Temporal Reiteration on the Font of Power ability? Then you'll need a lot of turn attempts to also use it on other abilities during the day with RKV.

[Shadowmind]

Temporal Reiteration only gives +1 round to any duration, so if you manifest it every round for a minute, you get +10 rounds.

Are you using Temporal Reiteration on the Font of Power ability? Then you'll need a lot of turn attempts to also use it on other abilities during the day with RKV.

You don't pick which ability to use it own, it applies to ALL ongoing effects. The Metamind uses Font of Power, then manifests Temporal Reiteration to keep it ongoing. The down side of it is you have to use your swift action every turn to do it, which makes immediate actions fairly risky since if you don't have another method to get swift actions the combo ends after about 6 immediate actions used. Also if you get hit by an deduffs/effects you need a method to remove it, since the duration won't expire while the loop is active.

[Mixster]

Temporal Reiteration only gives +1 round to any duration, so if you manifest it every round for a minute, you get +10 rounds.

Are you using Temporal Reiteration on the Font of Power ability? Then you'll need a lot of turn attempts to also use it on other abilities during the day with RKV.

You don't pick which ability to use it own, it applies to ALL ongoing effects. The Metamind uses Font of Power, then manifests Temporal Reiteration to keep it ongoing. The down side of it is you have to use your swift action every turn to do it, which makes immediate actions fairly risky since if you don't have another method to get swift actions the combo ends after about 6 immediate actions used. Also if you get hit by an deduffs/effects you need a method to remove it, since the duration won't expire while the loop is active.

Ah, I get it now.

That's pretty awesome.

[Amechra]

Hey, all you need to do is combo on a casting/manifesting of that one Eberron spell that gives you 1 Temp Action Point per round!

Then, you just get you Swift Action back for free using the Temporary Action Point to fuel your RKV abuse!

[Eldritch_Lord]

My favorite combo with the metamind infinite buffs trick involves Kensai and Abjurant Champion.  AbjChamp's 5th level ability lets you set your CL equal to your BAB if your BAB is higher; Kensai's 7th level ability lets it grant a creature up to [class level] BAB for an hour 1/day (as well as any or all of base save bonuses, but that's less important).  Combine this with the wonderfully poorly-worded Magic mantle ability to treat magic and psionics as "identical" and you boost your ML with that as well.  As it's not granted as a bonus (the BAB is "transferred"), and BAB always stacks, this should be a repeatable trick.  So make your first thrall an Abjurant Champion, which can also give you the Int-based arcanist you wanted, then instead of fusing with your second thrall, you could simply attract a, say, X 5/Kensai 10//Whatever 15, have it Instill you with 10 BAB and all of its base saves (giving you +10 BAB, +10 CL, +10 ML, and at least +7 to all saves), kill the thrall, attract another one with the same build tomorrow, have it Instill you, repeat.  This takes just 1 full-round action each day, and after a week you're looking at +70 ML and +49 saves; not too shabby.

If that's too cheesy for you (and given what you're already doing, it should be, but something to keep in mind ), another option is having a RKV//Eternal Blade, focusing the RKV more on the initiating than the casting and getting shadow pouncing in there somewhere for your first thrall instead of splitting RKV and the Eternal Blade up, as having all those maneuvers on the same guy helps with meeting prerequisites and getting higher-level maneuvers, which are always nice; it's not as shadow-pounce-y as your other idea, so you can decide whether you want more shadow-pouncing or more Tiger Claw TWFing and adjust to taste.  For the second thrall, I like an Archivist//Ardent/Metamind, to cover the 9th-level divine casting you don't have.  Your proposed thralls are great, go with those if you want more straight-up combat power and less initiating, this is just another option to consider.

[patha787]

First up I just want to thank everyone for their contributions. Thank you also for explaining the Font of Power trick - saves me the trouble.

Amechra
Thanks for pointing that out, I had intended on doing that but neglected to mention it.

Eldritch_Lord
Great, great suggestions - thank you.

You're right, Kensai might be a tad much, although I will keep that in mind. Interestingly, the two other builds you mentioned are very similar to something I've been working on.

THRALL 1 (Level 19)
Archivist 6/Dweomerkeeper 10/Sacred Exorcist 1/Divine Oracle 2//Ardent 9/Metamind 10
Sucks I can't fit the 10th level of Ardent in here for dominant ideal but with everything else it's a minor niggle.
It's a bit MAD too, since Archivist is primarily INT and Ardent is WIS, but in the end it won't matter as I'll have great INT from my actual player character when fused. It's still more optimized than Cloistered Cleric overall, I'd say.
Alternative Source Spell has been approved by the DM for Dweomerkeeper access and gives me supreme versatility for conversion; I could potentially convert any spell I can learn as an Archivist (which with all the ways to learn non-divine spells as divine, is near limitless) into a power; simply convert it to arcane via Alternative Source Spell then learn it as a power. With infinite PP trickery, I have essentially every power and spell in the game and with essentially infinite uses (limited only by 11 unique powers per level per day). On top of that, Sacred Exorcist for access to turning/DMM: Persist, and a full ten levels of Dweomerkeeper for all that craziness. Divine Oracle to essentially have Evasion in any armor.

THRALL 2 (Level 18)
Cloistered Cleric 3/Swordsage 1/Crusader 1/Crinti Shadow Marauder 5/Swashbuckler (?) 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 7//Ranger 2/Warblade 3/Revenant Blade 5/Eternal Blade 8?
 
This build needs more work and is just a starting point for brainstorming. I stole the first part of that build so it may not be ideal. Too many Cleric levels? Replace the Swashbuckler level? Is Eternal Blade>Revenant Blade (get 10 levels instead?)?

EDIT:
Forgot the silly Leadership rules (no additional effects over Leadership score of 25). Both Thralls are thus Level 17 I guess.

SECOND EDIT:
Elans still need to enter trance, so that rules that out. How can I eliminate my need to sleep? I figure consistently gaining the Outsider type (not native, but true outsider) would be one way but I'm not sure how.

Also, came across this madness:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3945177

Worth it for one of my thralls? It can literally do just about anything.

[patha787]

MASSIVE EDIT:

REVISED THRALL IDEAS (build order not fleshed out, just final levels)
Thrall 1 - INT based caster
Archivist 5/Dweomerkeeper 10/Sacred Exorcist (slotted in somewhere as early as possible for DMM: Persist) 1/Something else 1//
Wizard 5/Incantatrix 3/Spellguard of Silverymoon 4/Shadowcraft Mage 5

Thrall 2 - WIS/CHA based RKV/Ardent/Metamind/Shadow Pouncer
Ardent 7/Metamind 10//
Cloistered Cleric 3/Swordsage 1/Crusader 1/Crinti Shadow Marauder 5/Ruby Knight Vindicator 7

Dual wield short swords (or Sunblades).

Thoughts?

[JohnnyMayHymn]

some random thoughts:

one thrall is sharn the other pixie for massive ability boosts and MAD is a non-issue

planar shepherd for a. time ratio tricks and/or b. insane ex, su, sp abilities of wildshape forms

i would go with some binder/tenebrous apostate/tainted sorcerer metamagic cheeze

what if all three characters took a major bloodline? +9 to binding, wildshape, ardent(arguably), +4.5 to RKV(IL), +9 all CL

a level of spell thief? and that feat that stacks casting class levels?

don't forget thralls can be replaced, you could have a planar shepherd with heirophant levels show up to grant you all his wildshape uses (from whatever chosen plane you want) or grant wishes via his wildshape, then take off
EDIT: That Hierophant can show up once a week for uninterrupted full wildshape capability

[patha787]

some random thoughts:

one thrall is sharn the other pixie for massive ability boosts and MAD is a non-issue

planar shepherd for a. time ratio tricks and/or b. insane ex, su, sp abilities of wildshape forms

i would go with some binder/tenebrous apostate/tainted sorcerer metamagic cheeze

what if all three characters took a major bloodline? +9 to binding, wildshape, ardent(arguably), +4.5 to RKV(IL), +9 all CL

a level of spell thief? and that feat that stacks casting class levels?

don't forget thralls can be replaced, you could have a planar shepherd with heirophant levels show up to grant you all his wildshape uses (from whatever chosen plane you want) or grant wishes via his wildshape, then take off
EDIT: That Hierophant can show up once a week for uninterrupted full wildshape capability

Thanks for the input.

I initially considered Planar Shepherd but I've decided it's not what I'm after from a roleplaying/fluff standpoint, in spite of it's undeniably optimized awesomeness.

I think I'm going to drop Shadowcraft Mage and use War Weaver instead; it's less optimized from a solo standpoint but I think the build has that more than covered already and this'll make me much more useful/beneficial to the actual party for quick buffing/sharing of spells. No longer necessary by virtue of how I'll be using Arcane Reach and Chain Spell/Shapechange into psychic sinew to buff the party; build for Thrall 1 is now:

Archivist 5/Dweomerkeeper 10/Sacred Exorcist 1/X 1//
Wizard 5/Incantatrix 3/Spellguard of Silverymoon 4/Archmage 1/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 4
(progressing IotSFV to level 7 once Epic Leadership is attained in Epic levels)

Once fused, I'm going to be spending my days in a Persisted Shapechange as a Solar (ala Team Solars) so MAD is no longer an issue; this also solves the eating and sleeping issue, since I'll be an outsider. Basically I'm a Solar who is also an 18th ML Spell to Power Erudite, 17th CL Archivist/Dweomerkeeper with a plethora of DMM Persisted buffs, a 17th CL Wizard/Incantatrix/Spellguard/War Weaver and an optimized Shadowpouncer/Ruby Knight Vindicator; all with Swiftblade abilities and multiple ways to abuse the action economy, etc. Not to mention all my loyal followers.

Speaking of followers, I was thinking - what would be some good classes with great/useful low level (6th and below) abilities to use fusion on? I'll definitely make one 6th level follower a Psionic Artificer, and probably a Warblade, too (since it synergizes nicely with the INT). Binder? The Incarnum classes (I don't know much about these)? Stuff that synergizes well or grants bonuses from abilities (i.e. Marshal)? Other stuff from Tome of Magic (Shadowcaster? Truenamer?)?

OPTIONAL: What would be the best way of getting an at will or permanent Girallon's Blessing? If I replaced Thrall 2's TWF tree with the MWF tree and had Girallon's blessing, I'd have even more attacks; money is no object as with my abilities there are a million ways to get the gold.

Team Solars can be found here and was a big inspiration for this build:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188138

Also check out Isstinen Tonche (from the same author), another source of inspiration:
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=54203

EDIT:
Also, where can I read about Bloodlines? I've heard mention of them on CO boards before but don't know how they work etc.

[Mooncrow]

Bloodlines are found in Unearthed Arcana - figuring out how they actually work is another thing entirely though  

The most commonly accepted theory is that they work like LA buy off, that is, the "Bloodline Level" that they talk about isn't counted as a level for ECL, but just as an xp cost.  That makes it good for some builds, and not so good for others.

The other interpretation; that the levels count towards ECL, means that no one in their right mind would take one, ever. 

[JohnnyMayHymn]

Bloodlines are found in Unearthed Arcana - figuring out how they actually work is another thing entirely though  

The most commonly accepted theory is that they work like LA buy off, that is, the "Bloodline Level" that they talk about isn't counted as a level for ECL, but just as an xp cost.  That makes it good for some builds, and not so good for others.

The other interpretation; that the levels count towards ECL, means that no one in their right mind would take one, ever.

I would use them in gestalt... even if using +ECL version