The Complete Cost Reduction Handbook - Discussion Thread

[Garryl]

By "Elemental Whale," I think you mean an Elsewhale, a Gargantuan Elemental from Planar Handbook 117.  (All the other Colossal candidate creatures I know of have too many HD even for greater planar binding!  You'd need to use gate!)  If you could somehow customize an Elsewhale to give it Hidden Talent: expansion and force it to use this before binding, you'd not need gate.

At this point it's DM fiat if you can do this.

I always thought elemental whales were normal whales from the Monster Manual, turned into elementals with one of those half-elemental or elemental creature templates.

[Bastian]

By "Elemental Whale," I think you mean an Elsewhale, a Gargantuan Elemental from Planar Handbook 117.  (All the other Colossal candidate creatures I know of have too many HD even for greater planar binding!  You'd need to use gate!)  If you could somehow customize an Elsewhale to give it Hidden Talent: expansion and force it to use this before binding, you'd not need gate.

At this point it's DM fiat if you can do this.

I always thought elemental whales were normal whales from the Monster Manual, turned into elementals with one of those half-elemental or elemental creature templates.

Yep, specifically the Elemental Creature templates. I'll clarify the page number and link to the srd section on whales to make sure people understand that.

[kitep]

In PHB2, there's a 1st level spell called "Transference" that lets you use other (willing) creatures' XP for crafting.

[Endarire]

On what page is this spell?

[kitep]

Interesting.  My big list of spells says Transference is in PHB2, but I can't find the spell in the book.

Turns out it's a "web enhancement" to PHB2.  Magic Items: Transferring XP Costs

The web page lists the spell, a magic item, and a feat.

[nijineko]

btw, the item crafting cost basics are incorrect in the handbook. see quote below, and correction below that.

Cost to Craft (gp) = Market Price / 2
Cost to Craft (xp) = Market Price / 25
Time to Craft (in days) = Market Price / 1,000

Cost to craft (gp) = Base Price / 2
Cost to craft (xp) = Base Price / 25
Time to craft (in days) = Market Price / 1,000
Market Price = Base price + item cost (*if any) + spell xp cost (†if any)

* such as a weapon, armor or shield
† such as a ring of wishes

Note: for many items, the base price and the market price are the same, but not for all. and the rules for crafting specifically call out base price to calculate the gp and xp values rather than the market price. Also note that the cost and xp reduction feats from eberron also do the same...

[Bastian]

Further clarified the elemental whale issue.

[nijineko]

For the record, the cost for crafting large (barely) mobile objects, and large immobile objects is also missing from the handbook...

[Bastian]

Where can those be found again? If you mean the stronghold ones, I have included them.

[nijineko]

i did mean the sbg ones, i must have missed them, probably due to tiredness, on my last read through. my apologies.

[zook1shoe]

Enhance Item is where in the Epic Level Handbook?

ever see this spell ?

can you choose the XP transferred from sleeping/unconscious characters?

[Bastian]

Enhance Item is where in the Epic Level Handbook?

I don't have my copy with me but it should be on page 114.

ever see this spell ?

can you choose the XP transferred from sleeping/unconscious characters?

No since "the XP cost for creating a magic item can only be freely transferred in complete awareness of the consequences, which also necessitates a minimum Intelligence of 3." Thus they must be conscious.

[zook1shoe]

I only see that they need to agree w the item, and control the XP spent.

unconscious and sleeping creatures are considered willing.

just say to them... "say no if you don't want to spend your XP on this magic item"

they can make their listen check to wake up and spoil the spell

[Bastian]

I only see that they need to agree w the item, and control the XP spent.

unconscious and sleeping creatures are considered willing.

just say to them... "say no if you don't want to spend your XP on this magic item"

they can make their listen check to wake up and spoil the spell

The complete awareness part is the problem.

[zook1shoe]

Use a spell to visit their dreams and ask then.

I still don't see why you say 'complete awareness' because that's not in the description. All I see is they need to agree and choose how much XP.

my way of asking the unconscious person above works w the first part, but not for the second.

you could complete both of those this way....

"let's make this item, you need to supply all the XP. If you don't agree to help with this, you need to say no."

this is telling them what the item is, as needed. They need to say 'no' or something similar to stop the item idea. And they'd be providing all the XP.

[Bastian]

Use a spell to visit their dreams and ask then.

I still don't see why you say 'complete awareness' because that's not in the description. All I see is they need to agree and choose how much XP.

my way of asking the unconscious person above works w the first part, but not for the second.

you could complete both of those this way....

"let's make this item, you need to supply all the XP. If you don't agree to help with this, you need to say no."

this is telling them what the item is, as needed. They need to say 'no' or something similar to stop the item idea. And they'd be providing all the XP.

Please read the section of the article titled Requirements for Transferring XP (note these rules apply to all forms of XP transfer).

Also note that all the ways you have suggested so far violate the requirement that the action be done "freely" (as in of ones own free will).

[nijineko]

if they are unconscious, they can't say yes or no. there is no will or consciousness to make a judgement and decision.

just having a "status" of "willing" doesn't cut it.

[Bastian]

i did mean the sbg ones, i must have missed them, probably due to tiredness, on my last read through. my apologies.

Oh, whoops. I think I actually only included the ones for having a mobile stronghold since they are better than stationary stronghold benefits. And me without my books. *sigh*

[nijineko]

i did mean the sbg ones, i must have missed them, probably due to tiredness, on my last read through. my apologies.

Oh, whoops. I think I actually only included the ones for having a mobile stronghold since they are better than stationary stronghold benefits. And me without my books. *sigh*

well, technically, the mobility option on a stronghold does not affect the consideration as to whether an item is created with the "bulky but still technically mobile" cost or the "immobile" cost. if it is a permanent part of the stronghold's structure and cannot be removed from said stronghold without destroying it, then it is "immobile". (or maybe i just misunderstood what you meant. ^^ )

for example, i just finished crafting a folding boat as a mobile stronghold. due to the flexibility of the exact size and shape of a stronghold space (p.9 iirc), a folding boat (pinnace form) is still just within one strong hold space. enchant it with mord's capable caravel and you have an auto pilot, servants, sailors, and a fancy extradimensional space you can put other stronghold spaces in - and not have to pay for mobility on them.... on the higher level version, i added another casting of mord's mag mansion, and between the two i have crew space, cargo space, and pc space.

i added the predict weather and detect ship abilities, ie: radar. with the self-motility, submersible, burrowing, and flying option, even without wind it can move at 10mph in land, air, or sea. i also paid for some extra masts with sails for flying mode - mostly because it makes sense... and looks cooler. the protective enhancements work on anyone inside or on deck, it is made of livewood so it can self heal, it has nystul's on it to hide the magical effects, the hull is transparent (painted over to leave portholes), the space is fireproofed, and most of the enhancements work even in rowboat form, which is somewhat amusing (i can even pull a CJS at the pier to avoid paying the docking tax... ^^ ) . and it all folds up into a box when i need to walk away with it sneakily or not reveal my arrival/departure for some reason. as an added bonus, i can cast dispel magic on it to suppress its abilities during portal passages and the like.

i'm thinking my next enhancement will be the higher level terrain spell (phantasmal terrain? the one that lets you hide structures) on my boat... ie: cloaking shield. make it look like a cloud when flying, or a wave when sailing, or like a stream of water or lava when submerged or burrowing, respectively. won't hide the people, but they can't be on deck when submerged or burrowing, anyway. =D

[Gazzien]

Copied from my post in Ask A Question...

"
Slightly tangential, but Extraordinary Artisan (as well as Exceptional and Legendary) are [Item Creation] feats, and thereby legal targets for Magical Artisan, so MA applies to everything (because those three feats always apply).

Also, Bind Elemental requires a Khyber Shard per item, which costs between 4d4*75gp (average 750gp) and some higher amount (can't recall offhand) for larger ones, though you can make do with the ~750gp ones by jacking the DC of your CHA check up. You also need a second caster to use the Bind Elemental feat (who can also cast your decided binding spell, but doesn't need the Bind Elemental feat), and you need to make a CHA check like you were bargaining for a task with the elemental...

Depending on how reliable your Khyber Shard access / second caster access is, it might be worth it to switch out Bind Elemental For one of the other Artisan feats, and just attach Magical Artisan to that.
"