Thoon and quintessence

[BrianTheBrain]

So, I'm about to drop Thoon Mind Flayers from MMV into my game and I want to make quintessence intriguing to the players, so I'm thinking about allowing them to use it as a replacement for XP requirements for item creation and spells/powers (with a gallon equaling X experience points) but there are two catches:
1. If they replace enough XP in spells/powers/item cration in the entire life of their character to equal half of the XP needed to get from the start of their current level to the next level, they'll have to pick either an illithid haritage feat from CPsi or an aberrant feat from Lords of Madness the next time they get a feat (even if it's a fighter/mage/psion bonus feat) to account for the corruption that this causes.
2. I'm not telling them about catch number 1, though I will strongly hint at it with things like "it worked, but it felt alien and wrong"
What I'd like to know is what you think would be a good XP/gallon ratio and what would be a good market price (bear in mind they may be finding a lot of the stuff and some magic item makers they try to have use it will refuse to use it again do to the "wrongness" the felt while using it). Also, if you have a different way to make the stuff enticing but altogether detrimental or a simpler way to show the corruption it causes or something similar, I'd love to hear it.

[TenaciousJ]

You should be explicitly clear about the limits you want to place on quintessence use.  Forced feat selection is extremely annoying.

[BrianTheBrain]

I can see where you're coming from, but I also want my players to worry and use caution, instead of treating it like a cerebral numbers game. I'd like the unknown, dangerous, enticing substance to be unknown, dangerous, and enticing. Like I said, if you have another way to accomplish this I'm all ears.

[Nachofan99]

They can always find an ancient tome or scroll detailing the practice but not giving specifics.  "You have been warned" seems fine to me.

[BrianTheBrain]

I may include a few warning signs like the items they make using it having a cumulative chance of miss fires, or players who use it for spells having to  save against fatiguing nightmares, and using flavor to describe how even after they use it the wrong feeling "lingers like a foreign presence in their blood".

[The_Mad_Linguist]

I'd start by replacing a racial trait or a forced bonus feat in a creepy way.

The wizard feels distanced and no longer able to connect with his familiar, and it starts shying away from him when he doesn't order it to stay close.  He now has a permanent aberration feat and doesn't get alertness.

Similarly, the elf loses his racial bonuses to spot, search, and listen as he starts seeing and hearing glimpses of unholy abominations out of the corner of his mind.  Bam! Aberration feat!

[BrianTheBrain]

An interesting idea. The two who would be most likely to use it are non-humans (an elf sorcerer/alienist and a min/max'd halfling bard). This would add another dimension to the XP/gallon ratio and the market price issues, as the alienist may be okay with aberrant feats, and even the controller bard would be okay with some of the illithid heritage feats. How much should I have them find?
I'm also beginning to realize that the thoon disciple may be a bit underpowered. They are certainly better at brain extraction than there un-thoon brethren, so they are certainly a threat to physically weak PCs, but that only applies to 2 of the 7 in my group and the other 5 could easily squish their squishy tentacles. To at least make them viable against the others, I'm thinking about replacing the cleric levels with ardent levels (maybe of freedom and law) and replacing one of their feats with chain power, using powers like hustle and grip of iron to make them quick and and even better at grappling.

[caelic]

I'd be inclined towards the "General warning devoid of numbers" approach, myself.  If you've warned your players that those who dabble with this stuff tend to become twisted and pick up deformities, I don't see any need to tell them exactly how many points they can use without penalty.

[Kethrian]

You could even hint that using a little probably wouldn't hurt, and even tie the thing to saving throws with ever-increasing DCs.  Just be sure to roll the save yourself, and ask the player for his save modifier, and don't disclose what the DC is.  Occasionally swap the save between Fort and Will, depending on whether it's going to corrupt their body or mind on that particular instance if they fail, plus it'll keep them off guard as to what's really happening.

[DonQuixote]

Another fun thing you could do with Quintessence would be to have them contract Warp Touch, rather than messing with their feats.

[BrianTheBrain]

Another fun thing you could do with Quintessence would be to have them contract Warp Touch, rather than messing with their feats.

what book is that in?

[SolEiji]

Just going from memory, but that's Book of Vile Deeds if I recall.

[DonQuixote]

Vile Darkness, yeah.  It basically has you roll a d% to determine what mutation they obtain.  It's a pretty wide range of warpings.

[BrianTheBrain]

Hmmm, I actually already have a mechanic in that campaign similar to that; a mist in the underdark-type-area that poisons and deforms any thing that's not immune to it. Plus, I think a %10 chance of death might be a bit extreme and may scare away my players from it's use. (I should of pointed out that what I was attempting to accomplish is getting the PCs to argue about whether or not they should use it, and a 1 in 10.1 chance may get rid of that temptation.)

[DonQuixote]

You can always replace death with something else.  I just figured that, bad as some of those side-effects may be, most of them are less aggravating than losing feat choice.  Given that you already have such an effect, however, I have three other suggestions:

• You could use a variant of the Demonic Possession rules (page 21 of Fiendish Codex I) in which characters might become possessed by alien thoughts, rather than a demon.
• Similarly, something built off of the mechanics used by the fiend of corruption's Fiend's Favor ability (page 203 of Fiend Folio), combined with the cumulative nature of lesser geas's penalties, could make characters "addicted" to using quintessence.
• Finally, you could also modify taint from Heroes of Horror to a more aberrant feel, replacing some of the effects of corruption and depravity, as appropriate.

My main view here is that restricting feat choice penalizes the player more than the player character.  While the character may be disturbed by the new tentacles, the player is going to be aggravated over the disruption of his build.  Penalties are one thing, but taking choices away from the player is quite another.

[BrianTheBrain]

That's a good point, and I do like the modified taint and possession idea. I think I'll offer it as a choice: A. Modified taint table, B. Aberrant or illithid heritage feat, or C. Mystery choice (possession).

[grollub]

Definately give the group a heads up or warning if you are going to penalize them to which feats they have to take.

[BrianTheBrain]

I also hear tell of an illithid variant where the tadpole didn't have enough flayer juices to complete the transformation so the resulting creature has the mind and digestive system of a flayer but the appearance of the original humanoid. Does any one have the stats for that?

[SolEiji]

I also hear tell of an illithid variant where the tadpole didn't have enough flayer juices to complete the transformation so the resulting creature has the mind and digestive system of a flayer but the appearance of the original humanoid. Does any one have the stats for that?

That is the Adversary, an illithid boogeyman they fear with the appearance and mindset of a man but the powers of an illithid.  It's scary because this half-illithid would know all their secrets and how to hurt them, without the loyalty to the elder brain and whatnot.  It's not statted, but I imagine it would be an illithid sans tentacle attacks.  Since that's kind of weaker, I wouldn't mind throwing on other templates to boost it up.  I figure... the victim might be an adventurer, so it can have class levels.  Give it the racial features of its previous species, etc.


Strange, I swore I read this, yet I can't find it anywhere...

[kumosk]

I also hear tell of an illithid variant where the tadpole didn't have enough flayer juices to complete the transformation so the resulting creature has the mind and digestive system of a flayer but the appearance of the original humanoid. Does any one have the stats for that?

That is the Adversary, an illithid boogeyman they fear with the appearance and mindset of a man but the powers of an illithid.  It's scary because this half-illithid would know all their secrets and how to hurt them, without the loyalty to the elder brain and whatnot.  It's not statted, but I imagine it would be an illithid sans tentacle attacks.  Since that's kind of weaker, I wouldn't mind throwing on other templates to boost it up.  I figure... the victim might be an adventurer, so it can have class levels.  Give it the racial features of its previous species, etc.


Strange, I swore I read this, yet I can't find it anywhere...

Should you still care you lore regarding the Adversary was featured in Lords Of Madness.
Also since I wasted time creating this account for the sole purpose of telling you this I sincerely hope you do.