Grease vs. Ice Slick

[Kethrian]

Which spell is better, when used to coat a patch of ground?

Grease
 - 10' square
 - Requires reflex saves every round or fall prone
 - DC 10 balance checks also required to move at 1/2 speed; fail by 5 or more, fall prone

Ice Slick
 - 20' square
 - Requires balance checks every round or fall prone
 - movement limited to 1/2 speed, unless skating or gliding

Does Ice Slick's balance DC equal the save DC, since it isn't a stated number?

[sirpercival]

I would say that Ice Slick is better, since it makes every creature in it flat-footed, not just those that are trying to move (and it has a larger area).

[pelzak]

Hi,

Not 100% sure about that but DC of Balance check is standard one (10 I think) for Ice Slick.

Best regards,
Pelzak

[darqueseid]

my knee jerk reaction is to say grease,
its a stronger option, the area is pretty good, its not that much of a difference vs the slick, and requiring reflex saves+balance checks is good.

the balance check for ice is probably 10-15, you have to compare it to the balance check for grease.  Its a slick surface, thats it. 

[Kethrian]

So even though Ice Slick's saving throw is listed as "see text", and the only thing in the text that has a DC is the balance check, which is unspecified, it's still just a flat 10, and not equal to the save DC?

[Vicerious]

It seems like it should really be Saving Throw: none.  It makes a surface slippery and requires Balance checks, so you refer to the Balance rules for slippery surfaces.

[Kethrian]

But it's a magically slicked surface.  That has no impact on what the DC should be?

[Kethrian]

Also, since Ice Slick will knock the person prone, whether moving or not and even if their check fails by only 1-4, it obviously doesn't follow normal balance rules.  So, why should the DC?  It's a 1st level spell, so the save DC should be in the 14-16 range early on, and increases as the caster's ability score does.  Is that too powerful that it needs to be nerfed to 10, especially since there's only one check per round, unlike Grease's Reflex plus balance?

[pelzak]

Also, since Ice Slick will knock the person prone, whether moving or not and even if their check fails by only 1-4, it obviously doesn't follow normal balance rules.  So, why should the DC?  It's a 1st level spell, so the save DC should be in the 14-16 range early on, and increases as the caster's ability score does.  Is that too powerful that it needs to be nerfed to 10, especially since there's only one check per round, unlike Grease's Reflex plus balance?

Because there is nothing in spell text that will state otherwise. I really wish it would be better... but it looks like it's not.

Best regards,
Pelzak

[Kethrian]

Also, since Ice Slick will knock the person prone, whether moving or not and even if their check fails by only 1-4, it obviously doesn't follow normal balance rules.  So, why should the DC?  It's a 1st level spell, so the save DC should be in the 14-16 range early on, and increases as the caster's ability score does.  Is that too powerful that it needs to be nerfed to 10, especially since there's only one check per round, unlike Grease's Reflex plus balance?

Because there is nothing in spell text that will state otherwise. I really wish it would be better... but it looks like it's not.

Best regards,
Pelzak

So you would just ignore the fact that it states "Saving Throw: See text" and that the only thing that needs a DC is the Balance check?  Since there is no other text declaring what the DC should be, that seems to indicate that the balance DC is the save DC.

[pelzak]

Nope.
Skills checks are taken on standard DC unless stated otherwise.
Saves are taken on spell DC.
So because in this case there is nothing about making saves (only skill check) DC is 10 (or modified by circumstances by DM) but not by your Wisdom and spell level.

Really I wish it's otherwise...

Best regards,
Pelzak

[Kethrian]

Where in the rules does it state that?

[pelzak]

Where in the rules does it state that?

Some checks are made against a Difficulty Class (DC). The DC is a number set by the DM (using the skill rules as a guideline) that you must score as a result on your skill check in order to succeed.

So unless there is anything that states that this is opposed check or check versus other DC you should use DC of the specific skill.

Best regards,
Pelzak

[Kethrian]

By using that logic, Ice Slick would have no effect unless the surface already required a balance check to begin with, as "severely slippery" merely adjusts an existing DC, and does not set one of its own.  The description of the spell declares otherwise, and forces balance checks even against those who do not move.

[pelzak]

Yes, so this is exception from general rule which is clearly stated, there is nothing about DC of skill check other than "The DM should adjust skill checks by circumstance."

But of course if you are DM you can modify it as you like.

Also if you will have any strong justification why spell DC should be used instead of standard skill check let me know, I would love to convince my DM that's the case 

Best regards,
Pelzak

[skydragonknight]

On the plus side it's 20 ft of difficult terrain. A nice follow-up spell after Solid Fog.

Actually, the two spells in the OP would stack very well since icy surfaces increase balance DCs by 5 (from what I'm reading in Frostburn).

[Kethrian]

Yes, so this is exception from general rule which is clearly stated, there is nothing about DC of skill check other than "The DM should adjust skill checks by circumstance."

But of course if you are DM you can modify it as you like.

Also if you will have any strong justification why spell DC should be used instead of standard skill check let me know, I would love to convince my DM that's the case 

Best regards,
Pelzak

Well, I guess I'm lucky then, because my DM agrees with me that the spell sets the balance DC, but does not get the very slippery modification.  I would love to find something more definitive, but I'm having a hard time finding any.