Author Topic: Sacred Cows?  (Read 15090 times)

Offline veekie

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Re: Sacred Cows?
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2012, 05:09:11 PM »
I will definitely concede that chaos approximately equally evil is a sacred cow. Or the converse, that law somehow equals good. These seem to be assumptions that have no internal consistency.
Ancient Moorcock reference, especially with the fight between order and chaos sounding somewhat more esoteric and family friendly than between good and evil(especially in the moral panic era).
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Offline Libertad

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Re: Sacred Cows?
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2012, 05:11:49 PM »
1. The idea that dynamic level balance, or "suck now, rock later" works.  It's the idea that mages at high levels can be more powerful than level-equivalent fighters because they were weak at low levels.

4th Edition got rid of it, but it still exists to an extent in Pathfinder.

2. That goblins and over "savage humanoids" should always be dumb and underdeveloped.  Goblins and kobolds have equivalent Intelligence to humans, for example.

Even when campaigns try to depart from this (like Eberron), monster societies still ends up full of poverty and strife.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2012, 05:05:28 PM by Libertad »

Offline Whisper

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Re: Sacred Cows?
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2012, 07:31:56 PM »
1. Spells and magic items that were grandfathered in from first edition. Wish (game-breaker), Shapechange(overpowered), Gate(game-breaker), Invisibility (low-level binary), Knock (obsoletes a whole class and is level 2).

2. Wizard magic can't heal people... why?

3. Ability score damage... it's all over the place, it lasts all day, you don't absorb it better at higher level, and you have no defense until you can cast 4th level spells from a splatbook.

4. Level drain. No save, just suck.

5. Ray of Enfeeblement. First level, enemy fighters are now irrelevant.

6. Clerics can turn undead. Not demons, not other unholy things. Just undead. Regardless of their god or character concept.

7. Saving throws. Either you totally eat an effect, or totally resist it.

8. The D20. A flat-range RNG wide enough to eat skill numbers until high level.

Offline Keldar

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Re: Sacred Cows?
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2012, 09:24:29 PM »
Vancian magic.  4e preported to get rid of it, but it just infected everyone else.   :shakefist  Die damn you.  Die!

Offline SneeR

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Re: Sacred Cows?
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2012, 10:04:40 PM »
Vancian magic.  4e preported to get rid of it, but it just infected everyone else.   :shakefist  Die damn you.  Die!
I hate Vancian magic! It only makes sense for wizards, if them!
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Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Sacred Cows?
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2012, 10:34:25 PM »
What sacred cows are there?
A short list:
  • Alignment (mentioned a few times already)
  • Plus items
  • Six ability scores ranged 3-18.
  • Hit Points
  • Armor Class
  • Vancian Casting


We can start with elves are immune to sleep.
Actually, they used to be only 90% resistant, and half elves were 30% resistant.
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Offline veekie

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Re: Sacred Cows?
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2012, 03:18:41 PM »
Vancian magic.  4e preported to get rid of it, but it just infected everyone else.   :shakefist  Die damn you.  Die!
I hate Vancian magic! It only makes sense for wizards, if them!
Not even for wizards! Vancian spells are literally trick ammo for your wizard shaped bazooka.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Sacred Cows?
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2012, 03:48:44 PM »
Vancian magic.  4e preported to get rid of it, but it just infected everyone else.   :shakefist  Die damn you.  Die!
I hate Vancian magic! It only makes sense for wizards, if them!
Not even for wizards! Vancian spells are literally trick ammo for your wizard shaped bazooka.

Yet PF became the most sucessful TT RPG out there precisely by stickying with them and all the other things people are calling "sacred cows" for reasons I still can't phantom. What further proof do you need that people actualy enjoy those? 

Really, you all complaining here, but I'm personally happy that rpgs are not completely cold grey worlds whitout magic and overcomplex health systems where nobody wants to fight because the slightest wound cripples your combat ability (aka the only real alternative to HP).
« Last Edit: January 10, 2012, 03:59:49 PM by oslecamo »

Offline Keldar

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Re: Sacred Cows?
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2012, 08:44:24 PM »
  :blush  I'll tell you a secret, 4e taught me that D&D needs Vancian Magic.  For all that I despise it, it is a signature of the line and losing it contributes to making the game seem less like D&D.  Honestly, to most its probably D&D magic not Vance Magic by this point.  That said, I still hate it.   :shakefist

I would love to see a well supported alternative to the default Vancian system along side it rather than it being the only, er game in town.  No, one and done optional rules don't count.

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Sacred Cows?
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2012, 08:40:06 AM »
Yet PF became the most sucessful TT RPG out there precisely by stickying with them and all the other things people are calling "sacred cows" for reasons I still can't phantom. What further proof do you need that people actualy enjoy those? 
That's not actually proof that people don't like those things. It's just proof that they prefer it to the alternative.

In all fairness, it's hard to say what "people" want, because they all want different things. As far as a game designer is concerned, the question should probably be something more like "can the game be successful without the sacred cows?", and then "what sacred cows can I remove for the sake of a better game?" and "what ones have to stay so that people will still buy my edition of D&D?".
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Offline skydragonknight

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Re: Sacred Cows?
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2012, 09:35:16 AM »
I would love to see a well supported alternative to the default Vancian system along side it rather than it being the only, er game in town.  No, one and done optional rules don't count.

Legend (a game based on the OGL) actually does a pretty good job of bring melees and mages closer together while still having a near-Vancian system.
Hmm.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Sacred Cows?
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2012, 11:20:19 AM »
Yet PF became the most sucessful TT RPG out there precisely by stickying with them and all the other things people are calling "sacred cows" for reasons I still can't phantom. What further proof do you need that people actualy enjoy those? 
That's not actually proof that people don't like those things. It's just proof that they prefer it to the alternative.
You have a double negative there, which means you just confirmed my quote. ;)

Anyway if you remove one of the negatives (no proof that people like those things), that's like saying people don't enjoy eating, they just prefer it to starving. They don't enjoy being healthy, they just prefer it to being sick. They don't enjoy games, they just prefer it to siting watching a wall. What's the diference really? They like one more than the other, and that's what matters. Specially in a game, where the purpose is to have fun!

Really, if there's no better alternative to the "sacred cows", it's not much of a sacred cow now is it? :smirk


Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Sacred Cows?
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2012, 12:07:18 PM »
Yet PF became the most sucessful TT RPG out there precisely by stickying with them and all the other things people are calling "sacred cows" for reasons I still can't phantom. What further proof do you need that people actualy enjoy those? 
That's not actually proof that people don't like those things. It's just proof that they prefer it to the alternative.
You have a double negative there, which means you just confirmed my quote. ;)
Whoops! At least you caught what I meant. Or I'm insane.


Anyway if you remove one of the negatives (no proof that people like those things), that's like saying people don't enjoy eating, they just prefer it to starving. They don't enjoy being healthy, they just prefer it to being sick. They don't enjoy games, they just prefer it to siting watching a wall. What's the diference really? They like one more than the other, and that's what matters. Specially in a game, where the purpose is to have fun!

Really, if there's no better alternative to the "sacred cows", it's not much of a sacred cow now is it? :smirk
Well, your examples are obvious hyperbole. There's a big difference between picking one of two editions of a game (or even playing or not playing altogether) and choosing to eat or die.

That being said, my point is just because PF is more successful than 4E doesn't mean it's successful because PF kept certain sacred cows that 4E didn't. That's one of many pieces to a much larger puzzle, and you can't make such a broad claim based on it. Maybe it's Wayne Renold's artwork (no, I don't think this is why it's successful :p). There's no proof that the reason (if there were only one) is sacred cows.
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Offline oslecamo

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Re: Sacred Cows?
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2012, 12:49:32 PM »
Then, by all means, point a leading TT RPG in expansion whitout the "sacred cows". It's all fair to request the argument of doubt, but you need to present a viable alternative. If they were really "useless sacred cows that make no sense and need to be butchered at all costs", don't you think some gaming company would've already came out there and dominated the market with it?

Offline Kajhera

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Re: Sacred Cows?
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2012, 12:59:45 PM »
Only if they were trying to dominate the beef market.

Sacred cows don't precisely cost much, economically, but that doesn't mean we're better off with them. They're just stuff that's stuck around.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Sacred Cows?
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2012, 01:22:12 PM »
Then by simple evolution they would've removed by now. However since they're present on the fittest/strongest exemplars, while the ones that lost them are going extinct, then they're clearly not something that "just stuck around".

Offline Kajhera

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Re: Sacred Cows?
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2012, 01:43:13 PM »
Just like our wisdom teeth.

Wait.

Evolutionarily speaking, I'm hazarding a guess we're talking about vestigal structures here, not necessary ones.  :)

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Sacred Cows?
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2012, 02:19:30 PM »
Then, by all means, point a leading TT RPG in expansion whitout the "sacred cows". It's all fair to request the argument of doubt, but you need to present a viable alternative. If they were really "useless sacred cows that make no sense and need to be butchered at all costs", don't you think some gaming company would've already came out there and dominated the market with it?
You're the one attributing PF's success to sparing of sacred cows. The burden of proof is on you. I'm not saying that it isn't a reason for success; just that you haven't done much to prove it. You've stated an opinion and are now charging me with proving it wrong.


Just like our wisdom teeth.

Wait.

Evolutionarily speaking, I'm hazarding a guess we're talking about vestigal structures here, not necessary ones.  :)
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Offline SneeR

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Re: Sacred Cows?
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2012, 02:32:54 PM »
I think that sacred cows may be a nice throwback, maybe help players see the game through nostalgia-colored glasses to associate it with past edition's fun, but I'm not sure they are the reasn PF thrives. More the fact that 4E is an MMO wargame at heart rather than an RPG, I think is the reason people went to PF.
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Offline Agita

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Re: Sacred Cows?
« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2012, 03:11:18 PM »
You're the one attributing PF's success to sparing of sacred cows. The burden of proof is on you. I'm not saying that it isn't a reason for success; just that you haven't done much to prove it. You've stated an opinion and are now charging me with proving it wrong.

I think that keeping the cows is certainly part of the reason PF thrives - because those cows snare the grognards who don't want melee to have nice things, think that ToB is unrealistic and overpowered, claim that 4e killed roleplaying, and love Vancian casting, who make up a large part of its fanbase. Pathfinder does thrive on them, at least in part... because they're part of its marketing strategy, not because they make for a good game.

There are, however, plenty of successful RPGs out there that do away with the sacred cows. For a quick and dirty look, let's check out the examples Robby listed:
What sacred cows are there?
A short list:
  • Alignment (mentioned a few times already)
  • Plus items
  • Six ability scores ranged 3-18.
  • Hit Points
  • Armor Class
  • Vancian Casting
Nearly all of these are specific to D&D and games based on it or its OGL content, so you only need to look at games that aren't D&D to find games that ignore most or all of them.

For a few examples, Green Ronin's Mutants & Masterminds does away with Alignment (doesn't exist), Plus Items (everything comes from the same pool of points, no matter the shape it takes), Hit points (uses Toughness checks instead), and Vancian casting (it can be modeled, but powersets are inherently dynamic and at-will unless you make them otherwise) in its second edition. How close it sticks to the six ability scores is arguable, since those are mostly aesthetic in 2e with the exception of Str and Con. Its third edition moves farther away from the six ability scores, ranking them directly by their modifier and introducing two additional ones for a total of eight, but is still obviously based on them (including in its range of ranks, which starts at -5 and lists 0 as average). Last I checked, M&M was very much popular and thriving, with a fair-sized and dedicated community.

The various Storyteller game lines published by White Wolf do away with Alignment (WoD and its subgames use a scale of morality which, while retarded in its own right, doesn't have anything to do with D&D's nine alignments; doesn't exist in Scion and Exalted), six ability scores (Uses nine attributes ranked 1 to 5; the specifics vary between WoD and Scion/Exalted), and Vancian casting ("magic" abilities are generally based on a pool of points like spell points or power points and are otherwise usable at will if you can spare the points). Hit Points and Armor Class are sort of kept in spirit, if altered with health levels and Defense/Armor (WoD) and Defense Values (Scion/Exalted). The degree of deviation is similar to that of M&M 3e's abilities to the six ability scores, I guess. Plus Items exist in the form of equipment bonuses or artifacts. WW games certainly are popular and possess a huge fanbase, as much as it boggles the mind.

FATE-based games do away with Alignment (doesn't exist), six ability scores (skills only, ranked on a theoretically open-ended ladder), hit points (stress and consequences, which represent wounds as a narrativistic abstraction, are used instead), Armor Class (opposed rolls are generally used), and Vancian casting (varies between games). Plus Items are debatable, in that they theoretically are defined in the rules, but I haven't seen them used in practice beyond weapons and armor (which don't work as a straight bonus to X roll). Though I can't say I'm certain as to individual games' popularity, DFRPG has a decently-sized following, and the FATE system as a whole strikes me as something of a comer.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2012, 03:20:00 PM by Agita »
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