Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)

[Clanjos]

Right, if I could bring something up here...

Dracula, Lord of Darkness.

The world over knows Dracula exists. He is as infamous as one can be during the middle ages, and by the year 2000 there are ARMIES arrayed against him. In life, he was just a crusader. In Undeath, he was the devil himself.

In addition, legendary creatures like the Headless Horseman (Undead), Frankenstein's Monster (Construct OR Undead), and Talos (Construct) can't qualify.

[VennDygrem]

I would concede that Dracula is quite legendary in all aspects, though again he is much more likely to be a Vampire/Paragon.

As for the Headless Horseman, I wouldn't say he's quite legendary. There is a story about him, yes, but the legend is only so within the context of a single work of fiction (itself the subject of adaptations), and it is implied that the Headless Horseman was actually just a man in disguise all along.

Frankenstein's Monster hasn't, himself, done much worthy of legend other than exist. Victor von Frankenstein himself may be worthy of legend, having brought the dead back to life in a world where no such feat is considered possible. The creature, as he is more accurately referred as, variably either runs away and tries to learn and better himself in order to be more human, only to seek revenge on his creator, or is little more than the shell of a man filled with base instincts and vague recollections of what it is to be human (depending on the specific story one is sourcing from).

Talos is more of a guardian, like a sentry robot in some cases, and though 'large and in charge,' barely seems to qualify based on the merits of the class.

Even the class image of a minotaur represents a monster which, itself, hasn't done much to be considered legendary, though there is one or more legends written of it. Rather, the depicted creature would be a legendary version of a minotaur, and not the one described in the classic tale.

[Raineh Daze]

Vampire is only two levels long. He has at least three that aren't paragon.

Grim Reaper as a legendary skeleton? It's rather hard to tell, with something like that.

[Anomander]

For what it's worth, undead creatures do have a soul and sentient ones have the will and some certainly do not lack the ambition to perform deeds worthy of legend. They aren't alive and exist in a different state of being, yes, but they remain excellent awe-inspiring material from which legends are made of.
An awe not too different from the one that fiends inspire. Their existence being possible by their link to the negative energy plane makes them very similar to Outsiders if not for their dual nature. Some undead creatures actually never lived to begin with, which makes that distinction a bit more difficult to establish.

End of parenthesis.

[Raineh Daze]

... This argument about vampires is a bit weird because they can't have 4 HD in Monster Classes anyway, seeing as how the class is two levels long. @_@

[Anomander]

I meant the undead in general, not vampires, but I thought your concern with vampires was being able to keep the MoL levels after becoming a vampire?
As in, you already had the two levels.

[Raineh Daze]

Nope; my original concern was that if you take, say, vampire, it is then impossible to gain MoL. I guess in that case the rest of the qualification would be made up of Swarmshifter and Spell-Stitched or something; vampire is just the easiest undead to get examples for.

That you lose 2 HD if turned into an undead somehow is a bit weird, though. I thought losing prerequisites normally just meant you lost use of features? @_@

[oslecamo]

It seems people are geting something confused here.

Monster of Legend is not the "I'm the best at doing what my race is known for doing" prc. That's for what Paragon was created.

Monster of Legend is the "Holy shit since when do ogre mages have napalm blood?" prc. It's suposed to give your character some unique ability that otherwise wouldn't be expected on a being of your race. It's the brutish monster that also knows how to dabble in magic, it's the caster monster that also knows kung-fu, it's the fire elemental that has ice attacks, etc

Undeads and constructs are however static beings. They stick to their roles and don't change. Even a succubus may turn to Pelor's light and become a champion of good and law, but Dracula certainly isn't going to take sunbaths out of leisure, instead being the best at being a vampire-but still a vampire at the end of the day night.

Vampire is only two levels long. He has at least three that aren't paragon.

Implying that Dracula/Alucard has just 20 levels. I'll never get why some people think that everything has to fit in an exact 20 level build.

Anyway he was a king that liked to get his own hands dirty in the frontline so most probably some levels in fighter/warblade.

[Raineh Daze]

It seems people are geting something confused here.

Monster of Legend is not the "I'm the best at doing what my race is known for doing" prc. That's for what Paragon was created.

Monster of Legend is the "Holy shit since when do ogre mages have napalm blood?" prc. It's suposed to give your character some unique ability that otherwise wouldn't be expected on a being of your race. It's the brutish monster that also knows how to dabble in magic, it's the caster monster that also knows kung-fu, it's the fire elemental that has ice attacks, etc

Undeads and constructs are however static beings. They stick to their roles and don't change. Even a succubus may turn to Pelor's light and become a champion of good and law, but Dracula certainly isn't going to take sunbaths out of leisure, instead being the best at being a vampire-but still a vampire at the end of the day night.

What about those versions of Dracula that somehow got from 'undead monstrosity' to 'eldritch abomination'? Like the one that went from vampire to embodiment of chaos?

I thought you disliked arbitrary roleplaying restrictions?

Vampire is only two levels long. He has at least three that aren't paragon.

Implying that Dracula/Alucard has just 20 levels. I'll never get why some people think that everything has to fit in an exact 20 level build.

Anyway he was a king that liked to get his own hands dirty in the frontline so most probably some levels in fighter/warblade.

Actually, he'd need three levels on top of vampire to have enough HD to qualify for Paragon in the first place. That's why I said... well, that.

[Draconas]

For what it's worth, undead creatures do have a soul and sentient ones have the will and some certainly do not lack the ambition to perform deeds worthy of legend. They aren't alive and exist in a different state of being, yes, but they remain excellent awe-inspiring material from which legends are made of.

One thing I always found interesting is that since they are based off negative energy and the positive energy plane is the birthplace of normal souls, their souls are likely either inverted during undying process, or if they get new souls, the souls are 'photonegative' versions of normal souls.
In fact, the fact that negative and positive energies are inherently opposed and undead are much more attuned to the negative energy plane then most living creatures are attuned to the positive energy plane might be why undead kill so much. They literally can't stand being near living creatures, so they tend to remove the living part.

[Raineh Daze]

For what it's worth, undead creatures do have a soul and sentient ones have the will and some certainly do not lack the ambition to perform deeds worthy of legend. They aren't alive and exist in a different state of being, yes, but they remain excellent awe-inspiring material from which legends are made of.

One thing I always found interesting is that since they are based off negative energy and the positive energy plane is the birthplace of normal souls, their souls are likely either inverted during undying process, or if they get new souls, the souls are 'photonegative' versions of normal souls.
In fact, the fact that negative and positive energies are inherently opposed and undead are much more attuned to the negative energy plane then most living creatures are attuned to the positive energy plane might be why undead kill so much. They literally can't stand being near living creatures, so they tend to remove the living part.

It gets stranger. Add on Deathless.

[Anomander]

Monster of Legend is the "Holy shit since when do ogre mages have napalm blood?" prc. It's suposed to give your character some unique ability that otherwise wouldn't be expected on a being of your race. It's the brutish monster that also knows how to dabble in magic, it's the caster monster that also knows kung-fu, it's the fire elemental that has ice attacks, etc

That what you decided it was now. It was originally a creature imbued with divine power that is considered to be an archetype of its kind. I don't see how your definition doesn't fit undead creatures, though.

Undeads and constructs are however static beings. They stick to their roles and don't change. Even a succubus may turn to Pelor's light and become a champion of good and law, but Dracula certainly isn't going to take sunbaths out of leisure, instead being the best at being a vampire-but still a vampire at the end of the day night.

I wonder what gave you the idea that undead creatures are static beings. Their link to the negative energy plane is often a very unstable thing that warps them in the most unexpected ways. They are much more prone to change than most outsiders. They have many templates that apply only to them, one of which is the Evolved Undead that follows the idea that by just existing for a long time undead creatures naturally evolve into more powerful version of themselves. Them sticking or not to their role has nothing to do with the definition you gave that template; having crazy powers not normally acquired by their kind. Like a skeleton getting diamond bones that can somehow breath electricity that builds up in its ribcage.

A succubus turning to Pelor has nothing to do with them suddenly getting napalm blood. It is a complex process that can be linked to the Sanctified template. A legendary vampire gaining sunlight immunity, to use your example, isn't unheard of.

One thing I always found interesting is that since they are based off negative energy and the positive energy plane is the birthplace of normal souls, their souls are likely either inverted during undying process, or if they get new souls, the souls are 'photonegative' versions of normal souls.
In fact, the fact that negative and positive energies are inherently opposed and undead are much more attuned to the negative energy plane then most living creatures are attuned to the positive energy plane might be why undead kill so much. They literally can't stand being near living creatures, so they tend to remove the living part.

The soul isn't inverted. Undeath is animation of the body by channeling the Negative Energy plane. When that happens the soul of the being is contained, as if within a receptacle, same as it is with most living creatures.
The main difference is that the soul cannot be reached by life-granting effects because of that Negative Energy link. This is why when souls are used as a currency or bargaining material people often just use undead creatures to store them.

I somewhat recall reading that souls were created in the positive energy plane but am not sure where. I am curious now.
The hate of the living is often something they cannot help but feel considering that their channeled plane is in opposition with the positive energy plane, that channels life. Much the same way creatures of the aligned planes are predisposed to hating creatures that origin from planes of the opposite alignment.
When they are sentient, however, the drive is often still there but their sentience makes it possible to get past it and get along.

[VennDygrem]

So, where is the Living-Positive plane, Undead-negative plane described? I don't think I've seen that specifically outlined. Also, I always thought undead lacked souls, being simply animated bodies. Death, usually, releases a soul to the afterlife, while resurrecting the dead usually requires the willingness of the soul to return to the body. I guess I can see most intelligent undead keeping their soul. *shrug*

[Raineh Daze]

So, where is the Living-Positive plane, Undead-negative plane described? I don't think I've seen that specifically outlined. Also, I always thought undead lacked souls, being simply animated bodies. Death, usually, releases a soul to the afterlife, while resurrecting the dead usually requires the willingness of the soul to return to the body. I guess I can see most intelligent undead keeping their soul. *shrug*

I think the fact that even True Resurrection, given that it can bring back Outsiders and Constructs as well as create a body from nothing, requires the destruction of the created undead first rather suggests that the soul is still there one way or the other.

[Draconas]

So, where is the Living-Positive plane, Undead-negative plane described? I don't think I've seen that specifically outlined. Also, I always thought undead lacked souls, being simply animated bodies. Death, usually, releases a soul to the afterlife, while resurrecting the dead usually requires the willingness of the soul to return to the body. I guess I can see most intelligent undead keeping their soul. *shrug*

Libris Mortis states that Undead have a link to the negative energy plane, and evolved undead is what happens when that link gets bigger.
As for living things, most of them aren't as full of positive energy as undead are of negative energy(shown by the fact that living things don't usually have healing abilities in contrast to undead who cause ability damage and how undead don't die on the negative energy plane while living can die on the positive energy plane) so the positive energy plane is 'merely' where their souls come from, as opposed to something they are continually linked to.

[Anomander]

^
Yep. Undead creatures usually channel the negative energy plane while practically every living creatures do not channel the positive energy plane. That is why the living's hatred of the undead isn't driven by the disparity of their essence more than it is an instinctual reaction to the danger any monster would represent while most undead cannot help but wish them harm. 
Them having a soul is confirmed in a bunch of places. A good one is the Book of Vile Darkness on the matter of souls. There are also cases of undead who aren't dual natured creatures, their soul being their manifestation, mostly in the form of incorporeal undead.

Undead are also not to be confused with animated corpses. That is the difference between sealing a soul back into a body and animate it by linking it to a plane and just animating a soulless corpse as you would any other object.

[oslecamo]

It seems people are geting something confused here.

Monster of Legend is not the "I'm the best at doing what my race is known for doing" prc. That's for what Paragon was created.

Monster of Legend is the "Holy shit since when do ogre mages have napalm blood?" prc. It's suposed to give your character some unique ability that otherwise wouldn't be expected on a being of your race. It's the brutish monster that also knows how to dabble in magic, it's the caster monster that also knows kung-fu, it's the fire elemental that has ice attacks, etc

Undeads and constructs are however static beings. They stick to their roles and don't change. Even a succubus may turn to Pelor's light and become a champion of good and law, but Dracula certainly isn't going to take sunbaths out of leisure, instead being the best at being a vampire-but still a vampire at the end of the day night.

What about those versions of Dracula that somehow got from 'undead monstrosity' to 'eldritch abomination'? Like the one that went from vampire to embodiment of chaos?

God, pseudonatural creature, chaos, take your pick.

I thought you disliked arbitrary roleplaying restrictions?

Thing is, I don't consider it arbitary.

Monster of Legend is the "Holy shit since when do ogre mages have napalm blood?" prc. It's suposed to give your character some unique ability that otherwise wouldn't be expected on a being of your race. It's the brutish monster that also knows how to dabble in magic, it's the caster monster that also knows kung-fu, it's the fire elemental that has ice attacks, etc

That what you decided it was now. It was originally a creature imbued with divine power that is considered to be an archetype of its kind. I don't see how your definition doesn't fit undead creatures, though.

I decided that back at the first page:

I don't really want to tie options to any kind of monster. That's for what the Paragon is for. Legendary Monster is for those "Holy crap how did it do that?" moments.

So I'll just adapt those a little so they're more "generic". Added them to the bottom of the list, let me know how they are!

Undeads and constructs are however static beings. They stick to their roles and don't change. Even a succubus may turn to Pelor's light and become a champion of good and law, but Dracula certainly isn't going to take sunbaths out of leisure, instead being the best at being a vampire-but still a vampire at the end of the day night.

I wonder what gave you the idea that undead creatures are static beings. Their link to the negative energy plane is often a very unstable thing that warps them in the most unexpected ways. They are much more prone to change than most outsiders. They have many templates that apply only to them, one of which is the Evolved Undead that follows the idea that by just existing for a long time undead creatures naturally evolve into more powerful version of themselves.

And even more templates specifically don't work on undeads/constructs while working on pretty much everybody else.

Them sticking or not to their role has nothing to do with the definition you gave that template; having crazy powers not normally acquired by their kind. Like a skeleton getting diamond bones that can somehow breath electricity that builds up in its ribcage.

If it has a solid body  but no traces of organic matter, it's not really an undead anymore is it?

A succubus turning to Pelor has nothing to do with them suddenly getting napalm blood. It is a complex process that can be linked to the Sanctified template. A legendary vampire gaining sunlight immunity, to use your example, isn't unheard of.

Actually, in modern media you'll have to search far and wide to find a single "vampire" that still gives a crap about sunlight.

I don't give a crap about such "vampires" either.

Undead are also not to be confused with animated corpses. That is the difference between sealing a soul back into a body and animate it by linking it to a plane and just animating a soulless corpse as you would any other object.

They're known as flesh golems and animated objects. You know, the ones that don't specifically block the people used up in te process from being reincarnated.

[Raineh Daze]

I thought you disliked arbitrary roleplaying restrictions?

Thing is, I don't consider it arbitary.

Sentient undead, complete with the same souls they had, and fully capable of all the same creation, development, and progression as a living creature cannot become Legendary because they lack a pulse. Meanwhile, a mindless worm could, entirely by accident.

As for constructs, there's an entire game that revolves around such things' striving towards a goal. There's no reason an intelligent golem shouldn't be able to become legendary or improve--otherwise, every construct class on here should forbid gaining non-construct HD levels.

It looks arbitrary to me. 'Don't have a soul' doesn't work; intelligent undead do. 'Can't do new stuff' would forbid all class advancement because it's learning new abilities.

Undeads and constructs are however static beings. They stick to their roles and don't change. Even a succubus may turn to Pelor's light and become a champion of good and law, but Dracula certainly isn't going to take sunbaths out of leisure, instead being the best at being a vampire-but still a vampire at the end of the day night.

I wonder what gave you the idea that undead creatures are static beings. Their link to the negative energy plane is often a very unstable thing that warps them in the most unexpected ways. They are much more prone to change than most outsiders. They have many templates that apply only to them, one of which is the Evolved Undead that follows the idea that by just existing for a long time undead creatures naturally evolve into more powerful version of themselves.

And many templates specifically don't work on undeads while working on pretty much everybody else.

Are we counting inherited templates? Because they work perfectly fine when the creature is born, but not much else.

Them sticking or not to their role has nothing to do with the definition you gave that template; having crazy powers not normally acquired by their kind. Like a skeleton getting diamond bones that can somehow breath electricity that builds up in its ribcage.

If it has a solid body  but no traces of organic matter, it's not really an undead anymore is it?

Shade? Meant Shadow, but they're incorporeal. Hm...

Ghosts, strictly speaking, physically exist on the Ethereal, for a start.

But what about a skeleton that's more diamond-encrusted than made of diamond?

A succubus turning to Pelor has nothing to do with them suddenly getting napalm blood. It is a complex process that can be linked to the Sanctified template. A legendary vampire gaining sunlight immunity, to use your example, isn't unheard of.

Actually, in modern media you'll have to search far and wide to find a single "vampire" that still gives a crap about sunlight.

I don't give a crap about such "vampires" either.

I dunno, they can be awesome.

[oslecamo]

I thought you disliked arbitrary roleplaying restrictions?

Thing is, I don't consider it arbitary.

Sentient undead, complete with the same souls they had, and fully capable of all the same creation, development, and progression as a living creature cannot become Legendary because they lack a pulse. Meanwhile, a mindless worm could, entirely by accident.

You mean that undeads aren't automatically better at everything than the living? Shocking I know.

As for constructs, there's an entire game that revolves around such things' striving towards a goal. There's no reason an intelligent golem shouldn't be able to become legendary or improve--otherwise, every construct class on here should forbid gaining non-construct HD levels.

You ask too much of me to work with White Wolf material.

It looks arbitrary to me. 'Don't have a soul' doesn't work; intelligent undead do. 'Can't do new stuff' would forbid all class advancement because it's learning new abilities.

There's a significant diference between "can learn new stuff" and "You're so hotblooded that now napalm courses trough your veins".

Undeads and constructs are however static beings. They stick to their roles and don't change. Even a succubus may turn to Pelor's light and become a champion of good and law, but Dracula certainly isn't going to take sunbaths out of leisure, instead being the best at being a vampire-but still a vampire at the end of the day night.

I wonder what gave you the idea that undead creatures are static beings. Their link to the negative energy plane is often a very unstable thing that warps them in the most unexpected ways. They are much more prone to change than most outsiders. They have many templates that apply only to them, one of which is the Evolved Undead that follows the idea that by just existing for a long time undead creatures naturally evolve into more powerful version of themselves.

And many templates specifically don't work on undeads while working on pretty much everybody else.

Are we counting inherited templates? Because they work perfectly fine when the creature is born, but not much else.

Several undead types auto-discard any templates you had beforehand.

And ironically enough, undead-turning templates don't work on undeads themselves.

You're already a vampire? Ooppss, can't become a lich!

Them sticking or not to their role has nothing to do with the definition you gave that template; having crazy powers not normally acquired by their kind. Like a skeleton getting diamond bones that can somehow breath electricity that builds up in its ribcage.

If it has a solid body  but no traces of organic matter, it's not really an undead anymore is it?

Shade? Meant Shadow, but they're incorporeal. Hm...

Ghosts, strictly speaking, physically exist on the Ethereal, for a start.

By that definition, everything is corporeal in some place.

A succubus turning to Pelor has nothing to do with them suddenly getting napalm blood. It is a complex process that can be linked to the Sanctified template. A legendary vampire gaining sunlight immunity, to use your example, isn't unheard of.

Actually, in modern media you'll have to search far and wide to find a single "vampire" that still gives a crap about sunlight.

I don't give a crap about such "vampires" either.

I dunno, they can be awesome.

Alucard may not burn under the sun, but he states to quite dislike it (thus the shades), meaning he does gives a crap.

[Raineh Daze]

I thought you disliked arbitrary roleplaying restrictions?

Thing is, I don't consider it arbitary.

Sentient undead, complete with the same souls they had, and fully capable of all the same creation, development, and progression as a living creature cannot become Legendary because they lack a pulse. Meanwhile, a mindless worm could, entirely by accident.

You mean that undeads aren't automatically better at everything than the living? Shocking I know.

Um, no, this makes undead arbitrarily inferior to the living, for all their monstrousness, because they can't achieve the same.

As for constructs, there's an entire game that revolves around such things' striving towards a goal. There's no reason an intelligent golem shouldn't be able to become legendary or improve--otherwise, every construct class on here should forbid gaining non-construct HD levels.

You ask too much of me to work with White Wolf material.

I'm not asking you to work with White Wolf. I'm using it as an example. The only other constructs I can think of at the moment all come from Nanoha, and about half of them are varying shades of Living Construct, with only the Unison Devices being outright artificial.

It looks arbitrary to me. 'Don't have a soul' doesn't work; intelligent undead do. 'Can't do new stuff' would forbid all class advancement because it's learning new abilities.

There's a significant diference between "can learn new stuff" and "You're so hotblooded that now napalm courses trough your veins".

Constructs can be hotblooded too.

Undeads and constructs are however static beings. They stick to their roles and don't change. Even a succubus may turn to Pelor's light and become a champion of good and law, but Dracula certainly isn't going to take sunbaths out of leisure, instead being the best at being a vampire-but still a vampire at the end of the day night.

I wonder what gave you the idea that undead creatures are static beings. Their link to the negative energy plane is often a very unstable thing that warps them in the most unexpected ways. They are much more prone to change than most outsiders. They have many templates that apply only to them, one of which is the Evolved Undead that follows the idea that by just existing for a long time undead creatures naturally evolve into more powerful version of themselves.

And many templates specifically don't work on undeads while working on pretty much everybody else.

Are we counting inherited templates? Because they work perfectly fine when the creature is born, but not much else.

Several undead types auto-discard any templates you had beforehand.

And ironically enough, undead-turning templates don't work on undeads themselves.

You're already a vampire? Ooppss, can't become a lich!

That last part makes perfect sense. You're already a human? Can't be a dwarf. Already a cat? Can't be an eagle. Undead is a type, not a race.

Them sticking or not to their role has nothing to do with the definition you gave that template; having crazy powers not normally acquired by their kind. Like a skeleton getting diamond bones that can somehow breath electricity that builds up in its ribcage.

If it has a solid body  but no traces of organic matter, it's not really an undead anymore is it?

Shade? Meant Shadow, but they're incorporeal. Hm...

Ghosts, strictly speaking, physically exist on the Ethereal, for a start.

By that definition, everything is corporeal in some place.

But what about a diamond-encrusted skeleton rather than one made of diamond?

A succubus turning to Pelor has nothing to do with them suddenly getting napalm blood. It is a complex process that can be linked to the Sanctified template. A legendary vampire gaining sunlight immunity, to use your example, isn't unheard of.

Actually, in modern media you'll have to search far and wide to find a single "vampire" that still gives a crap about sunlight.

I don't give a crap about such "vampires" either.

I dunno, they can be awesome.

Alucard may not burn under the sun, but he states to quite dislike it (thus the shades), meaning he does gives a crap.

He's also drinking wine whilst crossing a moving body of water and nowhere near dirt  from his homeland. In sunlight. Guy doesn't care about his supposed weaknesses.