Creating feats...

[NunoM]

I thought of allowing each player build a custom feat, if they want, for an adventure we'll be playing soon. I'm not familiar with the rules, so it's only an idea i'm brewing, but in the meantime...
As anyone played custom feats in their games? How did that work out?

Also:
Can someone direct me to a 3.5E book that relates rules for creating of feats (i'm sure there was one around, but can't seem to find it)? or an online tool or something?

And finally:
is there a way to account for a new feats ballance? Maybe the rules (which i can't find) cover this, but i have no way of checking...

[RobbyPants]

As anyone played custom feats in their games? How did that work out?

Fairly well, for the most part.

Also:
Can someone direct me to a 3.5E book that relates rules for creating of feats (i'm sure there was one around, but can't seem to find it)? or an online tool or something?

I don't know of any off the top of my head. I'd avoid any weird point-based guides you find online. They tend to be misleading as hell.

And finally:
is there a way to account for a new feats ballance? Maybe the rules (which i can't find) cover this, but i have no way of checking...

Well, what do you want to balance it toward? Keep in mind that Core alone offers us such balance disparity as Toughness and Skill Focus (utter crap), Power Attack and Extend Spell (middle-of-the-road), and Leadership and Quicken Spell (either broken or much better than anything else).

So, what are you aiming to do? You have to know what you're using as the balance point before you can begin balancing.

[NunoM]

And finally:
is there a way to account for a new feats ballance? Maybe the rules (which i can't find) cover this, but i have no way of checking...

Well, what do you want to balance it toward? Keep in mind that Core alone offers us such balance disparity as Toughness and Skill Focus (utter crap), Power Attack and Extend Spell (middle-of-the-road), and Leadership and Quicken Spell (either broken or much better than anything else).

So, what are you aiming to do? You have to know what you're using as the balance point before you can begin balancing.

True. Let me try to explain. I saw a reference (somewhere) that gave some kind of balancing score on feats... I guess that's what you were referring to as "misleading" in your last post. If that's the case, what i understood from your post, is that you can only balance a feat in comparison to another, right?

I'm going to make up a feat right now (so keep in mind, i haven't thought about it much ):
Name: Accomplished Researcher
Pre-Req: arcane spontaneous spellcaster - more to be defined -
Description: You are very well versed in the mechanics of spell research
Benefit: Anytime you gain new spells (such as when you level up) instead of adding a spell from the spell list available to you, you may instead choose to include a spell of the same level from any other arcane spellcasting class.

This would apply to spellcasting classes like the bard, for example...

I would have to compare this feat, say, with "Extra Spell" and check for balance, is that it?

I was hoping to find a guideline to follow - again, i'm almost sure there was one - that would give me the "do's and don'ts" of this stuff, so i wouldn't have have to playtest (in my head or otherwise) all the feats the players may come up with...

[Jackinthegreen]

Accomplish Researcher could be the equivalent of 20 Extra Spell feats, and more.

It also brings up the issue of classes getting spells at different levels.  1st level Haste from Trapsmith is the default.  There's also those divine spells that can be made arcane, so abuse using that is very possible (and likely).

[Bloody Initiate]

When I create feats I use other feats as influence/precedent and spells as a balance.

[SolEiji]

Ah, feat creation.  I echo the previous thing about deciding the 'balance level' of your feat.  Personally I go for useful but not too useful feats like power attack.  They do their job and they do it well.  You may want to find a feat which closest resembles the one your creating, to compare and contrast.  Sometimes feats I'm making are outright replacements to feats I think are too weak or too strong.  In this case you don't need to compare it to its source material but rather to feats of a balance point that you desire.

There are no hard rules, only guidelines.  Your feat should do the following:
A) State your goal clearly.  Your goal's power is based on whatever you're comparing it to.  You can either be expanding options (a horizontal change) or improving an option (a vertical change).  Horizontal changes are easiest, vertical changes you should be aware of potential stacking and abuses.
B) Figure out what level this feat comes online.  If the feat is intended for level 7-8 and up, consider what you'll be facing there, both in enemies and what your allies are doing.  Adjust the strength of the feat accordingly, or change when it comes online.
C) The best feats are always useful.  Ask yourself if there are any levels that the feat stops having a significent benefit.
D) The last step is just looking for loopholes and abuses, and other unintended consequences.  Particularly with feats, usually anyone can take them of any class.  You may have intended your feat for fighters, but better check to see if wizards can use this to generate some negative unintended side effect, and so forth.  Also here, checking your language for poor or unclear wording.  Break out your black hat and try to break your feat.

Follow that and you usually have something compitent at the end of it.

Lesse...

Accomplished Researcher stuff...

Not bad, and compartable to Expanded Knowledge on psionics, but as Jack brought up it has very unintended consequences.  It is straight up better than Extra Spell, but I don't think that was the intended balance point.  It's closer to Expanded Knowledge, but lacks the "you get a spell one level lower than the highest you can cast" text, so it's actually stronger than Expanded Knowledge too.

One way to handle this is to seal up the feat, limiting it to the spell lists of classes X Y and Z.  While it doesn't have room for growth, it cuts off abuse that Obscure Class W has a spell list with Time Stop and Shapechange as 1st level spells and whatnot.  You know what you're getting.

If you want to lower its strength you can add back in the "1 level lower" text again.  You can also add requirements to the pre-reqs or have some sort of downside like an extra component, cost, etc.  Too many downsides and it would become unbalanced though, and no one would take it.  You are spending a feat after all, so it is worth something.

...ah, I just noticed, this feat seems to give you benefit over your entire career.  Thats stronger than I anticipate, and I personally discourage it (though, it doesn't make for a half-bad ACF).

The idea of the feat is just fine though, I like it.  Needs tightening, but the concept is sound.  Of course, it was just a hashed out quick example, but you get the idea.

Does that help?

[NunoM]

Thanks for the replies, guys! Really helpful!

As i said, the feat was taken from the top of my head, but i could already see uses for it, hehe...
Nevertheless you're very right, all of you. The feat is way too powerful as i read it now...

The list of guidelines SolEiji presented seems to fit neatly into the guidelines for feats that i'm sure i saw somewhere... (maybe it was 3E, i don't know, but i'm definetly messing up my Search check! ).

So, considering i was rewriting it (now that i've thought a bit more about it...):
I don't particularly like the "1 spell level bellow" thing, because that means that spontaneous spellcasters that progress slowly through spell levels would take too long to benefit from it (for example: Hexblade) and it wouldn't be at all useful.

Tweeking it to:
- requisite: spontaneous spellcaster lvl 1
- limit the usability to: "From the moment you take this feat on, when you gain the 1st spell/day slot of a new spell level for your class"
- limit the spells to choose from to: "in the wizard spell list for that level"

Which means that an Hexblade, at 8th level, could choose to learn a 2nd level spell, either from his spell list or the wizards' list, but at lvl 9 this feat would not apply. Same goes for lvl 11, in which he could learn a 3rd level spell; lvl 14 => 4th.

Usefulness:
None for the Sorceror... Bards, Hexblades and others: only useful when you're about to gain spells/day for 2nd level spells, because you don't qualify for the feat until you're a spellcaster (unless i'm reading the sequence of leveling up in PHB p.58-59 wrong, that says that spells come after feats - in that case i'd change the requisite to "spont. spellcaster 3rd", or something).

Tadaaa!!
What say you?

(in the meantime i'm going to search for feats to compare this to)

EDIT: typo

[NunoM]

Found the "rules" for feat creation!

It's for 3E and it's in the "D20 - Netbook of Feats"... but it's just as RobbyPants mentioned: "weird point-based guides you find online"

At least i'll write it up as a starting point (and a success in my Search check )...

EDIT: Re-read those rules... meh! :S The list of guidelines SolEiji presented appear more sound.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Player's guide to Kalamar gives examples but no method of judging what benefits are appropriate

Loyalty’s Reward [General]
Your loyalty to liege or lord grants you a benefit.
Prerequisite: Leadership feat or a follower of a character with the Leadership feat. Benefit: Taking this feat as the leader of an organization allows you to use the feat and grant others the benefit of a custom feat. Taking this feat as a member of the organization gives you the special ability granted by that organization. Example feats include:

    Snowbound: You gain a +2 resistance bonus to saving throws against cold spells. The druidic circle of the Voldorwoods and the Slennish can gain this feat.
    Serpent’s Swiftness: You can move an additional 10 feet on a charge action and gain an additional +2 bonus on your attack roll. Some barbarians of the Obakasek Jungle (the Kelen tribe) have this feat.
    Victims of Injustice: Due to combating constant oppression, you gain a +2 bonus to your Sense Motive checks made to oppose Bluff checks. The DC for someone to Intimidate you is 4 points higher than standard. Certain fanatical dwarves of Karasta take this feat.

[NunoM]

Hmm... That "Serpent’s Swiftness" feat almost looks like an ACF... quite comparable to the modified feat i presented, imho...
It's a real pity that they don't show how they balanced those, because, by that ruling, those are only given as examples and, unless they're described somewhere, the player is given full creation rights.

However, the prerequisites of the main feat probably are viewed as offsets to the power of it, and the benefits even include another one, since the char can only take full advantage of it, if it's a leader. Even if it is, the good stuff doesn't apply to the character directly...
Benefit = stronger cohorts ??

EDIT: ...my bad! Didn't read the part you could be a simple member of an organization...

[RobbyPants]

Name: Accomplished Researcher
Pre-Req: arcane spontaneous spellcaster - more to be defined -
Description: You are very well versed in the mechanics of spell research
Benefit: Anytime you gain new spells (such as when you level up) instead of adding a spell from the spell list available to you, you may instead choose to include a spell of the same level from any other arcane spellcasting class.

The way I read that, you can do this every time you gain a new spell by taking the feat once? If so, that's a lot of power for one feat. Even without the abuses that Jack listed, it's still good enough from versatility alone that probably any spontaneous caster would take it.

If it were one spell per feat taken, and you put in a limit that you could only select off of a spell list with the same number of spell levels as your class's list, then it'd be pretty descent. I'd just have it add an extra spell known. It'd be more powerful than Extra Spell, but not hugely so.

Found the "rules" for feat creation!

It's for 3E and it's in the "D20 - Netbook of Feats"... but it's just as RobbyPants mentioned: "weird point-based guides you find online"

That one I haven't seen before. The one I was thinking of is Sean K. Reynold's feat point system, which is a terrible execution of the idea. It overrates some lackluster to downright crappy feats like Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Skill Focus, and Combat Casting at 10 points (the baseline for a feat) while taking awesome feats like Quicken Spell and Natural Spell and halving the cost at 5 points! He's actually saying that when a druid takes Natural Spell by default at 6th level, that he should also get Quicken Spell for free! Holy crap, SKR!

So, I'll stop ranting and just wrap up with that any point-based thing I've seen thus far tends to have lots of holes in it. You're best trying to find an existing good feat at the balance point you want and going from there.

[SneeR]

As much as I wish it could be, D&D is not and cannot be converted to a point system. Everything is completely out of balance with each other: classes, feats, spells, even items. While this makes it exciting to find a good option for your character, it makes it very difficult to design custom additions to the games without deciding what power-level you want it at. You could match it to Quickdraw, Quicken Spell, Persist Spell, or Weapon Focus. You just need to recognize when your feat will be useful. if it is useful too often, your feat is too powerful.

[sirpercival]

Honestly, the best thing to do is look at examples of other homebrew... there's a forum for it right on this site, in fact!    And once you have your custom feats designed, post them there and get feedback.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

It overrates some lackluster to downright crappy feats like Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Skill Focus, and Combat Casting at 10 points (the baseline for a feat) while taking awesome feats like Quicken Spell and Natural Spell and halving the cost at 5 points! He's actually saying that when a druid takes Natural Spell by default at 6th level, that he should also get Quicken Spell for free! Holy crap, SKR!

Toughness (5 hp)    10 points   
a benchmark because your typical creature with 1d8 and this feat is going to have max hp compared to the same kind of creature without it; handy because it's half the fighter hp from a d10 and just over the max for a wizard's from a d4; also evenly divisible by 5 so you could have the option of buying extra hp at the price of 1 hp per 2 feat points

Toughness (3 hp)    6   see Toughness (5 hp)

Yes.  He does indeed claim that gaining 3 hp from toughness is worth MORE than natural spell.

Now, if it were 3 hp per level, then, well, it still wouldn't be worth it.  Never mind.

[NunoM]

Name: Accomplished Researcher
Pre-Req: arcane spontaneous spellcaster - more to be defined -
Description: You are very well versed in the mechanics of spell research
Benefit: Anytime you gain new spells (such as when you level up) instead of adding a spell from the spell list available to you, you may instead choose to include a spell of the same level from any other arcane spellcasting class.

The way I read that, you can do this every time you gain a new spell by taking the feat once? If so, that's a lot of power for one feat. Even without the abuses that Jack listed, it's still good enough from versatility alone that probably any spontaneous caster would take it.

Yes, point taken As i said a few posts back, the 1st draft of the feat (a thing of the moment) is way too powerful.
I suggested a few changes above so it would downgrade it a bit. Specifically: the PC could only benefit from this feat once/spell level he has access to, i.e. he would only be able to learn 1 spell per spell level, from outside his spell list, and, even then, only from the Wiz spell list.

...but, anyway, i won't push it. I'll most likely follow sirpercival's suggestion and get a sense of those homebrewed feats you guys have been working on.