Sniper [3.5 Base Class]

[VennDygrem]

Yeah, honestly, even if someone dipped, it'd take all of their feats to get only a few tricks, whereas someone who invests in the class fully gets a lot more. It actually kind of supports the idea of the dip, wherein you don't pick up a few skills (represented by the dip) and stop training in them; you continue what you learned, just at reduced pace.

[FireInTheSky]

So, I realized that if a Sniper can fly from 1st or 2nd level (presumably Racially), then all of the "Light Step" stuff is pretty much useless, which kind of makes 3rd & 7th dead levels (14th is Light Step: Air Walk, but you still get a Trick Shot, so the level isn't completely useless).  I kinda want to have an ACF for the Light Step Progression, but I'm not sure what.  Any suggestions?

EDIT:  15th also seems dead, and 11th half-dead.

EDIT²:  Or should I just leave it as is because not every level can be awesome?  I mean, even at the levels I mentioned above, the Aim damage is increasing, so they're not totally useless.

[VennDygrem]

Having a Light Step ACF wouldn't be bad, but overall, I'd say the class gets quite a lot as it is, so the other levels you mention might not need any tweaking or additions. That said, if you can come up with something small, that's not breaking anything, either.

[FireInTheSky]

Added the "Demoralizing Shot" ACF.  Whatcha think?

EDIT:  Is this class Low Tier 3?  High Tier 4?  Average Tier 4?

EDIT²: Made the Ranged Pin/Trip/Disarm Trick Shots better.

EDIT³: Added Energetic Shot trick.

EDIT⁴: Added Keen Perception CF, and cleaned up some Trick Shot wording.

[sirpercival]

You have trick shots for Grapple, Disarm, and Trip, but no Bull Rush?

Either way, I think I broke this.  If there's a Bull Rush trick shot you probably don't need bloodstorm blade, but whatever.

ALMIGHTY MALACHI, PROFESSIONAL BOWLING GOD
Goliath Sniper 6/Dungeoncrasher Fighter 6/Warblade 2/Bloodstorm Blade 2

Trick Shots: Whites of Their Eyes, Double Jeopardy, And Your Little Dog Too
Feats: Power Attack, Knockback, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper

Throw shurikens.  You can do the following against more than one person in a single round, I believe, but I'll explain it based on a single (-ish) target.

Round 1) Attack Dude A with your shuriken.
Round 2) Use your swift action to declare your thrown attacks as melee attacks via BB.  Now throw at Dude A (2-handed, of course), using Power Attack.  This triggers Knockback.  Bull rush Dude A into Dude B and get an automatic trip attempt against both of them.  If either of them falls down, you get immediate attacks against them (via Improved Trip), which you can make because you threaten them both.  This triggers a new Knockback Bull Rush on both of them.

Continue ad nauseum until you pound them into a wall or other obstacle, dealing 8d6 + 3*str mod damage via Dungeoncrasher.

You could do it with Orcish Shotputs to REALLY be bowling, but shurikens are a ton cheaper, and it's hysterical if you 2-hand them.

[FireInTheSky]

SWEEET!!!   


According to what you wrote, you didn't use any of the trick shots for Grapple, Disarm, and Trip (obviously, you just took the Improved Trip feat).  I didn't think it made sense to have a Bull Rush trick, since who would ever attempt a bull rush with a ranged weapon...


I still kinda feel that way.  I mean, if you're a Hulking Hurler and you're throwing halflings, trees, or tarrasques (maybe Tarrasque-Chucks? (you're welcome )) at people, sure you'd want to bull rush, but otherwise, it doesn't really make sense.  I mean, Bull Rush with an arrow?  Or a thrown dagger?  I dunno.


...ANYWAY...

So, what to do about said broken-ness?  I don't wanna get rid of And Your Little Dog Too, since it's full of awesome, but that's the one causing the problem.  Suggestions?

[sirpercival]

Bull rushing with a ranged weapon is awesome.  You can shoot an arrow at someone and knock them off a cliff, for example.  Wheeeee.

AYLDT is not actually the problem.  Sure it lets you do two at once, but you can just do one without it and still take somebody out, plus you can trip like the entire battlefield.  It's a power boost, but on a smaller order of magnitude than the rest of the schtick.

[EjoThims]

I don't see how that build is actually abusing Sniper at all.

In fact, it could use Master Thrower levels to the same affect quicker, though at a shorter range.

Really it's abusing BBS and Dungeoncrasher synergy and using Sniper (or MT) to make that more effective.

[sirpercival]

The reason sniper is necessary is the threatening at range.  Normally you wouldn't threaten so you couldn't make the later-on attacks, at least via my understanding.

[EjoThims]

The reason sniper is necessary is the threatening at range.  Normally you wouldn't threaten so you couldn't make the later-on attacks, at least via my understanding.

Ah, I see.

But, IIRC, forced movement does not provoke AoOs unless specifically called out as doing so?

[sirpercival]

It's not about AoOs.  Take, for example, a normal Knockback Dungeoncrasher.  You golf some poor shlub into someone else and get a trip attack against both.  However, if you can't reach them (i.e., aren't threatening them), you can't follow up with Improved Trip.  The sniper lets you threaten them at any range as long as you've hit them the previous round, so you can always follow up.

[EjoThims]

Then you're only gaining two extra attacks (one improved trip attack from each, though each does hit both targets), and this isn't broken at all, especially when you're sinking so many levels into such a niche scenario.

[sirpercival]

Then you're only gaining two extra attacks (one improved trip attack from each, though each does hit both targets), and this isn't broken at all, especially when you're sinking so many levels into such a niche scenario.

Not so.  Those attacks trigger Knockback again and can propagate outward to other enemies.  Nothing says you can't bull rush a prone creature.

[EjoThims]

Then you're only gaining two extra attacks (one improved trip attack from each, though each does hit both targets), and this isn't broken at all, especially when you're sinking so many levels into such a niche scenario.

Not so.  Those attacks trigger Knockback again and can propagate outward to other enemies.  Nothing says you can't bull rush a prone creature.

Sure, you knock them back again with the second attack, but you do not trigger additional trips so no additional attacks from improved trip.

If you argument is that you can use this to chain knock down a HORDE of very weak creatures, then I'll point you to a myriad of other ways to more easily and with less investment deal with many multiple weak enemies, including again Master Thrower paired with BBS and Dungeoncrasher; doubling all attacks with Palm Throw and hitting two opponents with each through Two with One Blow (already quadrupling attacks before even adding in trips) and in only 3 levels of MT instead of six in Sniper. For 5 MT levels he can do it all as touch attacks.

This is an incredibly niche scenario and is not overpowered at all, especially considering the other options for dealing with that same niche.

That said, there's still room in your example build for 3 levels of Master Thrower, and you'd be approaching a great way to handle a massive army of weak creatures by slamming each rank into the next.

[ariasderros]

I realize this is some serious Necro, but:

A player is thinking about being one of these in a campaign I'm starting, so I have some questions & comments about some of the abilities.

Light Step: When you reference "broken terrain" are you referring to "difficult terrain"?

Cunning Veil: Why Competence? If you are trying to get decent Hide, you will, by default, go for Greater Shadow, Shadowsilk armor. IMO, this would be much better left untyped. Much like how a Darkstalker Factotum gets Int to Hide. No reason for the Factotum to be better at using Hide than a Sniper.

Insightful Action [feat]: Why only 1/2 Wis? Yondalla's Sense adds full Wis.

Various Trick Shot abilities: Ones that have limited uses (e.g. Wis mod per encounter) should have the rule of uses being declared before attacks are rolled, as well as whether the ability use is used up if the attack fails.

[Drammor]

Nothing to see here. Move along.

[FireInTheSky]

I realize this is some serious Necro

No problem.  This is the perfect time of year for such things. 

Light Step: When you reference "broken terrain" are you referring to "difficult terrain"?

Yup.  Fixed.

Cunning Veil: Why Competence? If you are trying to get decent Hide, you will, by default, go for Greater Shadow, Shadowsilk armor. IMO, this would be much better left untyped. Much like how a Darkstalker Factotum gets Int to Hide. No reason for the Factotum to be better at using Hide than a Sniper.

Cunning Veil (Ex):  A Sniper of 7th level may apply her Wisdom modifier as a bonus to her Hide check.

Better?

Insightful Action [feat]: Why only 1/2 Wis? Yondalla's Sense adds full Wis.

Hmm...  Full WisMod seems like too much to me.  I mean, for a high-op character, a +10 mod isn't that hard.  And Imp Init is already one of the best feats in the game.  (And just because Yondalla's Sense exists doesn't mean I have to agree with it )  I dunno.  Does anyone else have thoughts on this?

Various Trick Shot abilities: Ones that have limited uses (e.g. Wis mod per encounter) should have the rule of uses being declared before attacks are rolled, as well as whether the ability use is used up if the attack fails.

Good point.  I added this wording to all of those:

A use of this ability must be declared before the attack roll is made, and the use is expended regardless of the result.

@Drammor: When I look at the table I made on my computer, there's no problem...


I also cleaned up/changed wording on some trick shots (Two Birds with One Arrow, Weak Spot, Lights Out, Critical Shot, Called Shot).

[ariasderros]

Insightful Action [feat]: Why only 1/2 Wis? Yondalla's Sense adds full Wis.

Hmm...  Full WisMod seems like too much to me.  I mean, for a high-op character, a +10 mod isn't that hard.  And Imp Init is already one of the best feats in the game.  (And just because Yondalla's Sense exists doesn't mean I have to agree with it )  I dunno.  Does anyone else have thoughts on this?

Nah. I agree with your analysis. Heck, +10 would be mid-op. Mailman gets +16 w/o really trying.

I will say that I also agree with Demo Shot being (Su), all I can think of is if I got hit in the head for (1d8+2d4+Str?) damage, that seeing an arrow sticking out of me would be quite scary. 

[FireInTheSky]

I just updated this to include the changes I made over on Rule of Cool.

Changes include:

• A clarification to the Aim ability (stating that it's usable with any ranged weapon, including thrown weapons).
  
• Ability type added to Practiced Shooter and Veteran Shooter. (Ex for both)
  
• A change to Perfect Dimensional Shot.
  
• Minor wording changes / clarifications to Critical Shot, Penetrating Shot, and Phase Shot.

[FireInTheSky]

Idea for a new Trick Shot (based on an old favorite):

Martial Shot
Prerequisite: Sniper Level 4
Benefit: Choose one of the following martial disciplines: Diamond Arrow, Falcon's Eye, Falling Star, Heaven's Arc, Solar Wind, Striking Eagle, or True Arrow.  Select one maneuver from the chosen discipline for every 4 Sniper levels (round down), ignoring all prerequisites except Initiator Level.  Sniper levels count as full Initiator Levels for the purposes of maneuvers gained with this Trick Shot only.  You can use each of these maneuvers once per encounter.  If you later gain levels in a class granting a maneuver recovery mechanism, that mechanism cannot be used to recover maneuvers gained with this Trick Shot.
Special: This Trick can be taken multiple times, each time choosing a different discipline.  Maneuvers learned with this trick may be used to satisfy prerequisites.



Thoughts?  Ideas for a name?

Edit: Changed the wording under Special.


EDIT:  Added.