Author Topic: Is this grapple terror too much? (Read 7722 times)

SleepyShadow · « **on:** January 13, 2012, 03:12:11 AM »

With the end of the Oriental Adventures campaign, I once again find myself behind the DM screen. After picking up a copy of Red Hand of Doom, I decided that it would fit nicely into the group's collectively built campaign world (before we went to Rokugan for a bit). However, the important villains throughout the adventure are too weak for the group of well-practiced optimizers I play with, so I decided to replace them all with custom villains of my own. However, I won't worry about the other villains until the group gets there.

So without further adieu, would this guy present a tough but fair challenge to my group, and if not, what could be done to fix it?

Ton Mu Fai
Neutral Evil Half-Ogre Aquatic Half-Orc

Class: Unarmed Swordsage 2/Fighter 2/Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Black Blood Cultist 3/Scaled Horror 1

Feats: Aberration Blood (Flexibile Limbs), Track, Inhuman Reach, Deepspawn
Bonus Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) [Swordsage], Power Attack, Cleave [Fighter], Improved Grapple [Cultist]

AyeGill · « **Reply #1 on:** January 13, 2012, 03:50:58 AM »

What level will these players be, and what level of optimization are they doing? Are we dealing with a low-level party with just a few more tricks up their sleeves than usual, or are we talking about a party of uberchargers, CODzillas and Shadowcraft mages?

dipolartech · « **Reply #2 on:** January 13, 2012, 08:05:09 AM »

Yeah give us some more information about your group. I've read that just as is Red Hand of Doom is built to be hard. I'm sure you can make it harder with custom enemies but you may be better off time and storywise just working on moving up the CR of the original enemy set. Maybe you can make the dragons older, and make them actually fight the whole army by themselves...

Ed-Zero · « **Reply #3 on:** January 13, 2012, 12:23:02 PM »

Also, what's this guys grapple check going to be at? I love the BBC for grapple builds, good choice.

sirpercival · « **Reply #4 on:** January 13, 2012, 12:33:47 PM »

You should have another feat at 9th level. I might swap out the two levels of fighter for 2 of totemist, to gain some more natural attacks and specifically girallon arms. Take a look at the grappling handbook in my sig for more ideas.

EDIT: Also, what version of half-ogre are you using? Maybe you want to use Half-Minotaur instead?

SleepyShadow · « **Reply #5 on:** January 13, 2012, 02:41:25 PM »

Ah yes, my mistake. At level 9 he has the Deepspawn feat for the tentacle goodness

. His grapple modifier is +26, though I have not gotten around to getting items for him yet.

As for the party, I have an Incarnate 5 looking at Necrocarnate in the future, a TWF Rogue 3/Fighter 2 (not sure what he's doing past this), an Astral Deva 5 from Savage Species who is focusing on AoO, and a Cloistered Cleric 5 who is going into Combat Medic.

sirpercival · « **Reply #6 on:** January 13, 2012, 02:48:39 PM »

Do you want a higher grapple mod at level 9? Because that's not all that scary... though for this mildly-optimized party it might be about right.

SleepyShadow · « **Reply #7 on:** January 13, 2012, 03:04:17 PM »

He'll likely be able to out grapple anyone in the party, since the only one with a strength score worth mentioning is the Astral Deva, and hers is still 13 points lower. I also have to take into account the fact that he is accompanied by two hell hounds and nine hobgoblins. I want to give the players a worthwhile challenge without simply devouring all of them.

However, for the sake of curiosity, how would I go about increasing his grapple further?

sirpercival · « **Reply #8 on:** January 13, 2012, 03:25:35 PM »

Well, if you're allowing Dragon Mag stuff, I would go with something like:

NE Half-Minotaur Aquatic Skarn
Lion-totem Barbarian 1 (City Brawler ACF)/Totemist 2/Ranger 1/Fighter 1/BBC 3/Scaled Horror 1

Feats: IUS^B, Track^B, Improved Grapple^B, Power Attack^B, Bonus Essentia, Battle Jump, Leap Attack, Aberration Blood (Flexible Limbs).

Bind Girallon Arms to the Totem chakra. Assuming elite array, Str 15 base + 4 half-minotaur +2 skarn +8 large +2 level = 31 (+10 mod)

Grapple Check: +7 BaB (with fractional BAB) +4 large +4 Imp Grapple +8 girallon arms +2 aberration blood +10 strength = +35

Include some items and you might break +50. Also, you have 4 claw attacks and 2 arm spine attacks at all times, and you have pounce + leap attack + battle jump + a necklace of natural attacks (valorous) and improved grab.

SleepyShadow · « **Reply #9 on:** January 13, 2012, 06:06:47 PM »

That is definitely impressive, sirpercival. I had not really thought about using totemist for Ton Mu, though I don't use fractional BAB. I think I would still lean toward Unarmed Swordsage since the maneuvers and stances granted can certainly provide an edge, not to mention wisdom mod to AC is nice. Perhaps something like this?

Half-Minotaur Aquatic Skarn
Unarmed Swordsage 2/Totemist 2/Lion Totem Barbarian 1/BBC 3/Scaled Horror 1
Feats: IUS^B, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)^B, Aberration Blood (Flexible Limbs), Track, Inhuman Reach, Deepspawn

I end up with a gore, four claws, two tentacles, two spine strikes, and an unarmed strike outside of a grapple, and an additional two claws and a bite in a grapple. If I'm doing my math right, I end up with +34 to grapple. It's a little lower than yours, but I do gain a few more attacks than yours.

Now my concern is if Ton Mu would be too much for the party if these changes were made.

sirpercival · « **Reply #10 on:** January 13, 2012, 06:39:05 PM »

Don't forget that the racial bonuses from Deepspawn and Flexible Limbs don't stack (IIRC), so you might want to pick a different iteration of Aberration Blood.

SleepyShadow · « **Reply #11 on:** January 14, 2012, 01:54:55 PM »

I honestly didn't see that Deepspawn gave a grapple bonus as well. I was just taking it for the tentacles

sirpercival · « **Reply #12 on:** January 14, 2012, 01:57:30 PM »

Lol. Well, there you go.

Actually... it doesn't say (in the SRD at least) whether a racial bonus from two different feats to the same thing would stack. You would think so, since the two seem to go together so naturally, but racial is not a bonus type that is usually described as stacking...

Thoughts?

SleepyShadow · « **Reply #13 on:** January 14, 2012, 02:06:15 PM »

I personally see nothing wrong with letting racial bonuses stack. Racial bonuses are a part of what sort of creature the character is, so it seems to me that tapping into his aberration heritage would only enhance those abilities further. Besides, he's already quite the mutant (Half-Minotaur Aquatic Skarn who has illithid cousins

), so it's hard to say how such a creature would manifest those abilities anyway.

There I go thinking in terms of fluff lol.

As far as crunch, another +2 isn't going to break him further. It just means he needs a 9 to grapple the party's zombie pet now rather than an 11.

sirpercival · « **Reply #14 on:** January 14, 2012, 02:17:24 PM »

What kind of zombie has that kind of grapple score?

SleepyShadow · « **Reply #15 on:** January 14, 2012, 03:33:54 PM »

Well, since the group changed what they were playing just before we started the adventure, the group now consists of a necropolitan Cleric focused in undead use, an arctic elf ranger 4/scout 1 doing archery, a human rogue 4/duskblade 1 going into ur-priest next level, and that same elf TWF rogue 3/fighter 2.

To answer your question, sirpercival, they traveled across the Worm Plains until they found a young purple worm. They killed the CR 8 creature at the expense of only a couple of summoned undead, and the necropolitan proceeded to reanimate the thing. So now they are heading into the Witchwood to square off with the Red Hand accompanied by this monstrosity

sirpercival · « **Reply #16 on:** January 14, 2012, 03:43:36 PM »

Bahahaha. OK, well your guy should still have no problem with the purple worm. Just give him a potion of CL 9 fearsome grapple (9 rounds of +8 grapple) for 900gp, and he'll shut it down.

SleepyShadow · « **Reply #17 on:** January 14, 2012, 03:59:07 PM »

They have potions for grappling? Wow, definitely spending some of his creation gold on those.

Slightly off-topic but I thought it worth a mention: I took a look at your grappling handbook, and there were definitely some good ideas in there. However, something I thought that may be worth mentioning is War Hulk, since it's very easy for most grapplers to qualify for. In fact, if Ton Mu survives long enough as a reoccurring villain, I was considering finishing off his build in War Hulk due to the strength increase and the aoe swings he gets. It seemed Mighty Swing would fit nicely with Improved Grab and Greater Multigrab.

What do you think?

sirpercival · « **Reply #18 on:** January 14, 2012, 04:09:35 PM »

It's a great class, one of the most broken prestige classes. I'm not sure if it fits in the focus of the handbook, since it's just Str increases... but I'll give it a brief mention anyway.

SleepyShadow · « **Reply #19 on:** January 14, 2012, 05:37:43 PM »

Alright, just something I thought I'd mention.

Regardless, thank you very much for your help. I'm sure Ton Mu Fai will terrify my players for many sessions to come

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Author Topic: Is this grapple terror too much? (Read 7722 times)