Author Topic: What is the point of traps?  (Read 19728 times)

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: What is the point of traps?
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2012, 12:58:33 PM »
The way traps are now doesn't really do much to the party that knows about them.  And the party that's hit by one knows about them, and then they start checking everything.  That's the problem.
Yeah, that's my biggest complaint. Traps in obscure locations tend to encourage behavior that makes the game boring as hell. I like the idea behind traps, but their current implementation really only works if the players and DM reach a gentleman's agreement on what's fair use of traps so the game doesn't slow to a crawl.

As an example I read years ago at The Den:

Quote from: Josh_Kablack
"You find a sword"
"I search the sword"
"You find a ruby in the pommel"
"I search the ruby"
"You find that it glints in the dawn"
"I search the glint"
etc

(Of course, this was made worse by having to declare every little thing searched, but you get the idea.)
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Offline Unbeliever

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Re: What is the point of traps?
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2012, 03:16:32 PM »
Adventure-oriented traps, which you can respond to in interesting ways are potentially interesting.  Ye olde standard D&D trap is a boring abomination that should be done away with.  The only times I ever encounter them nowadays are in modules, and as another poster pointed out, I think they are just there to either require you to have a rogue or to make that rogue feel better.

In Savage Tides, though, one of the "here's a trap for no good reason" offenders, we did come across an interesting one last weekend.  There's an Indiana Jones style boulder coming at us.  Now, one of us is a gold dragon (supermount build) and the other happens to be a dread necro who had magic jarred a bit monster.  Due to a player dropping out due to scheduling, we are rogueless.  So, we just tried to stop the boulder, taking some damage and making some strength checks (I had to kind of wing some mechanics to suggest to the DM but I'm good at that sort of thing).  That made a memorable interaction, and make the dread necro feel good about his magic jar shenanigans. 

So, that's good stuff:  the trap presents a problem and the PCs can deploy resources in creative ways to resolve it.  To the extent a trap does that, I think it's got potential.  To the extent it boils down to a resource tax (play a rogue, get an obscene skill check) or a hit point tax, they are uninteresting and generally a waste of time.

Offline dman11235

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Re: What is the point of traps?
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2012, 07:22:36 PM »
Exactly, and that's what needs to change.

Although, a thought occurs.  I don't really think the problem lies with the rules for traps, but with the fact that they ARE traps.  I have a thought exercise I want to try: post all of the situations where a trap could be an interesting addition to the game.

Done?  Yeah, thought so.  There aren't many.  And if you think about it, with the magic and all, why would people use traps like these?  I mean, pitfalls, spikes, weapons, boulders, etc. are all archaic examples of technology that just have no place in the society.  You'll be using alarms, not damaging traps.  Calling traps, they summon/call creatures to take on whoever triggered it.  Traps that drop a Dimensional Anchor and lock the doors....by casting Wall of Iron or something.  For mundane, you'll use that away from civilization, for hunting or something.  You can set up mundane alarms too.  This isn't to say that damage traps won't exist, but they just need a push in the right direction for ideas.  You'll use them to guard an area where you KNOW an enemy WILL come through soon, such as laying mines in a battelfield.  Or you'll use an alarm system for your house.  How bad would you feel if you killed some random peasant who just got lost in your castle on the way to the toilet?  Traps will be used by NPCs to guard areas in the same manner.  Damage traps will be used sparringly, and only in places where there is NO option other than "enemy", such as a dungeon or battlefield.  I'm not very creative, so this is far from complete.  What do you guys have?
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Offline RobbyPants

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Re: What is the point of traps?
« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2012, 10:23:45 PM »
Alternately, mundane traps are still used, but are really only meant to be CR 3 and lower. More lethal varieties might exist (that would deal enough damage to be unfair at low levels), but they're expected to be overcome quite easily. At this point, they're really just decorations, like that tapestry in the corner over there. So, it might make sense to use them at low levels, but beyond that, you don't even bother rolling. Effectively, you stop using them.
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Offline bruceleeroy

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Re: What is the point of traps?
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2012, 11:22:20 PM »
I find it interesting that everyone seems to have the perspective that traps are outdated. In my games, they're either mundane traps used by low-tech cultures (primitive swamp kobolds or somesuch) or magic traps guarding a spellbook, phylactery, etc. They're expected, sure, but if there is someone who is capable of searching for them, we assume they are searching without having to declare it. If there isn't a character capable of dealing with them, then it's another reason for a character to asplode. Digging through traps to get to the squishy indigents is a time honored tradition. I ran a version of Tucker's kobolds (specializing in alchemist's fire, woo) for a level 1 group and it's one of the most memorable sessions from our gaming table.

Obviously you have to knock off some of the edges for it to work for your table, but that's the case for most of the RAW.
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Offline dman11235

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Re: What is the point of traps?
« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2012, 01:29:04 AM »
First off, you have a fantastic name/picture combo.  Sho 'Nuff

The problem that I think (well, I am, I'm not in other's minds, this could not be the intent of this thread) we are trying to fix is the fact that after level....well, 5 in my experience, traps no longer have a high enough DC to be a challenge (they become auto-disables), when they go off they don't do much besides damage/minor inconvenience, they slow down the game, and they never exist as a logical trap.

Some of this can be mitigated by a good DM.  But that's relying on the DM to manipulate the rule and provide the good parts.  And that still doesn't handle the DC part or the slowing the game down part.  You can have the DM check for traps instead of the rogue needed to say they are, that helps, but it doesn't solve.
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Offline bruceleeroy

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Re: What is the point of traps?
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2012, 03:29:03 AM »
Thanks.


After level 5, traps become more of a slow resource drain, adding an environmental challenge to the mix. They can also be a puzzle, or mis-direction. In short, they add another dimension to a dungeon. Rather than kick in the door, fight, kick in another door, fight, rope trick, kick in a door, fight, etc. Also, I like to let the players harvest trap materials with a high enough DisDev. Or use the traps against enemies after bypassing them without setting them off.

Large traps along the lines of collapsing ceilings, pit traps, huge weighted nets covered in tanglefoot bags and hooks, etc, are used to make the players pay close attention to descriptions of surroundings and add an air of menace to the environment instead of just yawning at the monsters.

I don't agree with the previous posters who claimed that flight bypasses all traps. In the same world where flight is common, magical means of setting off traps are common. There are plenty of glyph traps, tripwire traps, pressure plates on walls and ceilings, etc. Methods of trapping things that hit all enemies passing through.

I usually also incorporate hidden passageways that are used to negotiate trap-ridden areas, if the players are the right size or lucky or competent.


Edit: After thinking about it for a moment, I think what happens is that players get jaded when they see the same tired old traps. Ooh, another pit. Oh look, poison darts! I think what the Dm needs to do is be inventive in his application of the traps.

If a player falls into a spiked pit trap at level 9, he chuckles, dusts himself off, climbs/jumps/flies/teleports out while the other players mock him for falling in a hole.

If instead, the floor opens up and the ceiling drops on him, releasing a flood of water filled with poisonous zombie piranhas, well, then the group is separated and confused, the terrain has changed and it's the perfect time for the sahuagin ninjas to attack.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 03:38:23 AM by bruceleeroy »
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Offline veekie

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Re: What is the point of traps?
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2012, 09:11:56 AM »
Well, theres a couple of roles:

Traditional - Resource drain, barrier to entry or surprise, you tend to be inconvenienced, or whoever is killed by something they never get to react to. Dependent on the surprise factor, its boring, and rewards boring paranoiac behaviors. Funny enough they're also the most PC abuseable traps. And if someone was realistically trying to stop all comers with lethal force, this is the type they'd logically use.

Set-piece - The trap-as-encounter concept popular with Indiana Jones. The whole encounter is one big, elaborate, multi-part trap, which acts as basically a full ambush. Generally not easily avoidable or detected(or if detected, improbable to bypass), the environment entraps the characters inside the trap with its trigger, forcing them to deal with it(e.g. giant stone boulder appears behind you, leaving you with only one direction to go).
This type of trap needs to be dynamically disabled, your skills play a role in identifying what are the components that needs to stop, and your combat abilities to ensure you survive it, or damage enough of it to get through. In character wise, these traps are costly, and difficult to setup. They're also spectacularly hazardous, being difficult to bypass, so either they are to limited access areas(where nobody who can't deal with it is supposed to be in the first place) or they need to be armed(classic example is the fleeing BBEG arming his collapsing palace).
Very entertaining, done right, though you need to make clear first, the rogue would be making it easier to deal with(its much easier if you know where in the mechanisms to strike for to disable it, but as any security system designer would tell you, you wouldn't put these vulnerable spots where they are EASY to reach, so you must still face the trap), but not stop it entirely with one roll.

Battlefield control - The opposite of the above, you have NPCs that have trouble standing up to PCs? And you can't just improve their equipment, because the gear would spectacularly inflate PC wealth. So you give them a set piece encounter to fight in. Sure a pit trap is merely inconvenient. A pit trap which has a tribe of goblins waiting to take advantage while half the party is in the pit is worse, it'd give even a CoDzilla party some headache. PCs avoiding pressure plates by flying? Have pressure plate triggered AoE effects or barriers, which the monsters know where the mechanism will hit(hint, don't go for the guy who triggered it), so they basically just need to move to certain spots to effectively cast BFC effects.

Traps as puzzles - Loved AND detested, the trap is a logic puzzle to the PLAYER(not the PC), problematic in that you need to engineer through the GM's logic(especially if he decides to be 'clever' and do some russian reversal), with what clues your skills provide. This one is author and audience dependent. Also an old school favorite.

Undesirable outcome - The trap doesn't harm YOU, it sets off alarms, alters terrain in a travel scale, starts the end of the world sequence...you know. What it does is change things at a plot level. Its a simple matter to have alarm alert whatever forces are in the area to arm and investigate, as well as lock doors and reposition corridors. You can also have traps that alter travel options(avalanche is a classic, you need to detect it, and then you need to bypass it with silence...or the next stretch of your travel is now a wall of snow), etc. Quite entertaining, though the rules don't always say you can do things like that.

In all cases, triggers do need to be elaborated. Trip wires, sound, time(every X minutes, you must perform some action like stepping on specific sequence of pressure plates so they don't trigger), etc are all valid, not just the archetypical floor pressure plate. Even levers and switches, for giving enemies without spellcasting battlefield control.
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Offline Unbeliever

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Re: What is the point of traps?
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2012, 09:57:09 PM »
Veekie does a good job laying it all out.  I'd just say that the Traditional role is generally-speaking, pretty silly and outmoded.  It leads to uninteresting behavior (search check every 5 feet) and a kind of ablative mentality I find boring.  In short, fuck Gygaxian dungeons. 

EDIT:  oh, and +1 zombie piranhas (solves the feeding problem ...) and Sahaugin ambushes.

Offline Endarire

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Re: What is the point of traps?
« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2012, 01:51:15 PM »
Thanks!

I also agree with a trap for zombie piranhas and sahuagin ninjas!

Offline dman11235

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Re: What is the point of traps?
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2012, 12:41:55 PM »
Okay, thought I had just now, and I posted it in RobbyPant's skill feat thread on the homebrew forum.

What if we made the searching for traps a passive thing?  Players cannot declare that they search for traps, they just automatically have an eye out for them.  The DM would be in charge of comparing stats, or rolling checks, or whatever needs to happen, but the players won't know whether or not there's a trap until it's sprung or someone sees it.  If done correctly, they should be completely surprised by a missed trap, and wouldn't be able to slow down the game by searching EVERYthing, maybe at most they get a circumstance bonus to the check or whatever once they've been hit by something.
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Offline Nunkuruji

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Re: What is the point of traps?
« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2012, 02:19:09 PM »
While I was a newer player, I found "The Hall of the Rainbow Mage" to have several trap/environment+encounter scenarios that were pretty well done. Level 7-11 adventure or so.

Offline liquid150

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Re: What is the point of traps?
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2012, 11:31:16 AM »
All I have to say has pretty much been said. I just wanted to pipe in to say it is a rare occurrence for me to use traps, except to increase the difficulty of an encounter when there are powerful PC's present. I don't like forcing one player to play a trapfinding class, and the tediousness of the players searching every door, every hall, and every object for traps subtracts from the fun and feel of the game, IMO.

Offline darknighthg

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Re: What is the point of traps?
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2012, 12:49:38 PM »
I think traps are still useful for a lot of reasons.
1) Not all parties have a guy that is good at trapfinding.
2) Even if they have it, he still can't be with each of the party members all the time. For example, the party splits because an unexpected wall/collapsed roof/etc. The healer and the tank continue to go through the dungeon, but none of them have a real search check for the traps they are facing.
3) Using them during an encounter will prevent the adventurers have time to search for them. Maybe the skillmonkey passes through the monster to give the others flanking, not beeing aware that there was a location triggered trap.
4) Even if they are aware of the traps, it's nice to put some. If they detect them, it's a nice XP reward for them; sometimes, the monster don't give enought (have anybody faced a CR 6 tendriculous for 300 XP? ¬¬). If they don't, they're gonna feel the point 5.
5) Wail of the banshee/Energy drain (more the first than the second): A spell that a wizard gets at level 17 for a level 10 party, that's definitively gonna hurt. How much Fort can a rogue or wizard have at level 10? +3 for con beeing generous, +3 for base save +2 to the save from some other source= +8... against a DC of 23, that's 75% chance to die automatically.

Offline dman11235

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Re: What is the point of traps?
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2012, 05:47:09 PM »
Those are specific circumstances though.  UNder your points, the only way traps are effective are if the party has no trap finder, they get split up, or they are used during an encounter.  And then if they do, you're excuse is "well, they get free XP", which doesn't address the problem that traps cause, or you're throwing traps flinging a spell 5 levels higher than they've faced, basically hoping to kill the party....that's not a good game....

The problem is that the traps aren't an issue without the DM doing something away from the base rules (higher CR traps, encounters, atypical party, etc.), and your points don't address those at all.  Traps are still a chore to take out, offering an all-or-nothing payoff, either you don't trigger it and it's time taken to basically say "I disarm it" or ignore it completely, or it goes off because they don't have a way of taking care of it (makign the PCs feel incompetent) and possibly doing lasting harm at no fault of the PCs, or not doing any lasting harm and being a waste of time.
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Offline b100d_arrowz

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Re: What is the point of traps?
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2012, 02:54:06 AM »
For me it's always depended on how competent the trap finder(s) in the party are. I personally love making up new traps and know that I overuse them at times, especially when competent rogues/wizards/monk with artifact that gives him blindsight and so forth are in the party. If the party is going into a big enemy fortress, usually the guards have some sort of method to prevent themselves from being killed by the trap (everything from just being an orc, order of activation, being soul bound to the BBEG, etc), which the players could emulate if they discovered it. I usually trap one legitimate loot stash a campaign, gotta keep players on their toes after all. And if traps aren't so much your thing, puzzles and encounters with summoned monsters can fill the defense roll of traps quite nicely... of course so can an army  :D
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Offline SneeR

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Re: What is the point of traps?
« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2012, 11:53:13 AM »
When I think about the origins of traps, particularly Indiana Jones, I wonder, "How on Earth does the Disable Device Skill work on traps?" Most traps have none of their inner workings showing so people can mess with them--that would be stupid! Sure, you can cut a tripline and prevent it from going off, but darts that blast out of a solid stone wall? A deep pit trap? A collapsing floor? How do you disable those things?

I honestly think think that searching for traps should just give you the upper hand against the trap based on foresight. You still need to outrun that boulder, but you can get a head start because you found the triggering mechanism! Or you could go a different way than that, if there is one...

You know the darts will shoot from the walls. Now you aren't flatfooted against them! Hurray!

I mean, it's not like there's mines in D&D. You can't logically disable most things, and it doesn't really make sense that some sleazy fellow gains the ability to dispel a firetrap because he snips wires enough.

I say Disable Device should not automatically disable a trap. I think that a Search check should reveal the trap, and you get to see more and more of its inner working based off of a your check. You can then take preventative measures against them, and Disable Device might come into play there. Like cutting the tripwire above, or stuffing corks in the dart holes, just so! The action should be specified, and then a Disable Device check may help, if that action is not misguided.
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Offline dman11235

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Re: What is the point of traps?
« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2012, 06:46:56 PM »
You disable those by disabling the mechanism that triggers them.  The mechanism is typically somethin like a pressure plate, or a tripwire, or an optical tripwire, something like that.  You can (and IRL we do) disable those regularly.
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Offline veekie

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Re: What is the point of traps?
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2012, 05:06:23 AM »
Okay, thought I had just now, and I posted it in RobbyPant's skill feat thread on the homebrew forum.

What if we made the searching for traps a passive thing?  Players cannot declare that they search for traps, they just automatically have an eye out for them.  The DM would be in charge of comparing stats, or rolling checks, or whatever needs to happen, but the players won't know whether or not there's a trap until it's sprung or someone sees it.  If done correctly, they should be completely surprised by a missed trap, and wouldn't be able to slow down the game by searching EVERYthing, maybe at most they get a circumstance bonus to the check or whatever once they've been hit by something.
That is a decent idea.

I used a set piece trap to simulate a semi-hostile genius loci and warped dimensions recently. Worked nice enough, especially with party perceptions more than capable of seeing stuff coming.
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Offline Keldar

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Re: What is the point of traps?
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2012, 04:00:25 PM »
I see three basic problems with traps.  Forgive me, I'll probably be repeating others some here.  Its just easier for me to keep my thoughts straight this way.

First is trap finding itself.  Its pointlessly time consuming and needlessly restricted to a single class feature.  What is so different about finding secret doors that anyone can do it, but no one can find traps without special training?  I'd say make everyone capable of using Search to find all traps.  Further, allow passive searching with a -10 to the skill, -5 for only moving at half speed.  To replace the exclusivity, the Trapfinding ability removes the penalty for passive searching.  (Alternately lessens it by 5 and add Improved Trapfinding at a later level to eliminate it.)  That deals with the idiocy of people poking every 5 foot square as they travel at the awe inspiring speed of 30 feet a minute!  It makes Rogues less essential, while still being useful for the task.  Active trap searching can be reserved for obvious locations.  Like that sealed off, uninhabited, Pharaoh's tomb, where they serve instead of monsters.

That traps do not scale well is the second issue.  A big part of why is traps continue to focus on bland damage.  A trap's purpose is first and foremost area denial.  The secondary function is resource/manpower depletion.  Traps in D&D almost exclusively focus on the second.  The Trapfinding ability testifies to this mentality.  At higher levels traps need to focus more on the denial aspect.  Alarms are useful, if sufficiently difficult to bypass, at every level.

The single largest issues traps have though is simply they are usually misused.  DMs wind up with bad habits in trap placement thanks to game developers providing poor traps and using them poorly in modules.  Traps don't belong in the middle of heavily traveled hallways or in the middle of a cavern.   When you place an automated trap, you place it where you never plan to go again.  (At least until some sap triggers it and clears the place for you.  :smirk)  They belong in baited locations, out of the way, or in sealed locations you never want to see again.  Traps in inhabited areas should be safe until someone knowingly triggers them.  The traditional method of salting every damn hallway in a dungeon loaded with monsters is just pants on head retarded.

With the right kind of traps in the right area, traps can become encounters in their own right or serve as an extra complication on another encounter.  Making the trap itself obvious, but its trigger impossible to find or disable can serve as a nice area denial device, the modern minefield is a perfect example.