[Pathfinder] Zen Archer Monk Handbook discussion thread

[StreamOfTheSky]

Please discuss anything about the handbook or build advice for a ZAM here.

Feats are almost complete, just need to do style feats.  Should I try to include other sources?  GreatRobo pointed out to me in PM that the psionics 3rd party book has a good ZAM race, for instance:

As I have been building my archer monk i noticed something that may be of interest to you... In the psionics unleashed there is a little race called Half- Giant. This race gives you +2 str. +2 Wis. and unfortunately -2 con. But that's not the awesome thing about it. The half giant has a racial trait called powerful build that allows the player to use weapons designed for a creature one size larger than normal. The half giant is still a medium race and doesn't take penalties for size. This could potentially allow you to wield a large comp. longbow (2d6) AND use a wand of gravity bow to up the damage to a hefty 3d6.

I would be inclined to say that is definitely a better race than Dwarf or Oread.

[GreatRobo]

Link to pathfinder SRD on Half-Giant race: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/races/half-giant

Edit: Sorry i meant to include more than just a link... Its not like people couldn't just find that themselves... But What else I will say is that playing an
8ft tall monk with red eyes can make for some pretty awesome role-playing as well. If your GM will allow this I would most definitely go for it!

Edit: After a few more weeks in campaign my character has blossomed. Now level five he has a REALLY great bow as well as an actual personality. I must say I'm still enjoying playing this class immensely and this guide (no matter how much of it is done) has been a great help. I will continue to try to help with anything i can.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Added traits.  Please feel free to help out mentioning good ones.  The traits system is horrible.  Just horrible to try and search through.  I'm doing traits from any source, but please only ones on d20pfsrd or some other easily link-able site.

Oh, and does anyone know if this trait exists JUST to screw over Tieflings for daring to be...still mechanically inferior to humans?  Or can non-tieflings take it.  The first words of the fluff text say, "You're a tiefling."  But it's not a race trait and there's no tiefling-only note.  Getting a cantrip at will is sort of good if others can take it.  I suppose using Adopted works anyway.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/council-of-thieves/infernal-bastard

[deuxhero]

I've seen mentioned elsewhere that Sorcerer (Celestial bloodline with the Empyreal archetype for Wisdom based casting) going into Arcane Archer has clinical depression, and the first two levels of Zen Archer give all the non BAB requirements of Arcane Archer for free.

PF goes and gives archery a crapton of useful spells, both for buffing and imbueing, Arcane Archer doesn't suck anymore (it progresses spellcasting and isn't Elf exclusive) and it even works fluff wise, as Empyreal Sorcerer gets his abilities from meditation.

Combine it with the seeker Sorcerer archetype, and you can disable magical traps and have the class skill bonus to disable device, which makes you replace the Skill Monkey for the cost of one feat.

With this build, Magical Knack is a great trait.

[StreamOfTheSky]

"Clinical depression"?  You mean feat starved, or something else?  I see that a ZAM 2 meets all the feat requirements, which is certainly helpful.

I still think Arcane Archer sucks, though.  Why?  It loses 3 CL.  Eldritch Knight is full BAB and only loses ONE caster level.  It would take a lot of awesome class features to make up for those 2 extra lost CL, and the AA's class features...really aren't that good.  Imbue Arrow is IMO worthless and Enhance Arrow doesn't even give a benefit until 3rd level (the 1st level benefit literally does nothing; if you don't have a +1 bow by level 8+, you fail at archery forever).

Also, while AA requires a painful BAB +6, EK requires 3rd level spells.  I cannot in good conscience recommend the AA prestige class when another one not even specific to archer/mage outdoes it for that build.

[StreamOfTheSky]

So anyway, I saw it mentioned today that fighting defensively does NOT require melee attacking.  And..it's true!  not just in PF, but 3E as well.  I seriously never knew that.  That makes the crane style feat tree very appealing indeed.

[deuxhero]

"Clinical depression"?  You mean feat starved, or something else?  I see that a ZAM 2 meets all the feat requirements, which is certainly helpful.

I still think Arcane Archer sucks, though.  Why?  It loses 3 CL.  Eldritch Knight is full BAB and only loses ONE caster level.  It would take a lot of awesome class features to make up for those 2 extra lost CL, and the AA's class features...really aren't that good.  Imbue Arrow is IMO worthless and Enhance Arrow doesn't even give a benefit until 3rd level (the 1st level benefit literally does nothing; if you don't have a +1 bow by level 8+, you fail at archery forever).

Also, while AA requires a painful BAB +6, EK requires 3rd level spells.  I cannot in good conscience recommend the AA prestige class when another one not even specific to archer/mage outdoes it for that build.

"Clinical depression"=Very SAD. Wisdom to AC, Wisdom to attack, Wisdom to spells (which may get Wisdom to various other things through some spells).

You don't qualify for Eldritch Knight without ANOTHER dip (all martial weapons) or Outsider race (unless PF changed that) and MUCH steeper investments to enter and really isn't a Zen Archer after 7 levels (6 for Wizards/Planetouched, 5 for planetouched Wizards) before you get into your PRC without Zen Archer levels. Arcane Archer is a 1 level dip in Sorcerer which isn't useless even before entering (Level 1 sorc/wiz list has a good number of archery spells, plus trapfinding).

Also skill points and reflex save, but that isn't that big a deal.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'm working under the assumption that a martial/caster build wants as many CL as he can manage.  I suppose if you look at it as an archer with some parlor tricks, AA might look more appealing, as it basically requires minimal arcane caster levels in order to meet the BAB +6 entry at a reasonable point.  I'll mention it when I get to prestige classes.  What would you suggest?  ZAM 8 / Sorc 2 / AA 10?  ZAM 6 / Sorc 4 / AA 10?

For prestige classes and multiclassing in general, I'm of the opinion that the ZAM's best break points are 1 (Precise Shot and what is effectively rapid shot), 2 (weapon focus and another archery feat), 3 (wis on attack rolls and Point Blank Master), 6 (Imp. Precise Shot and Weapon Specialization), or 8 (2nd extra attack from flurry) levels in.

[deuxhero]

Sorry, Ninja edit there.

Sorc 2 doesn't really seem to do much beyond delay entry into Arcane Archer, so I'm assuming it is your level after AA 10? AA 8 may be a breakpoint.

Spells a quick check says may be of intrest
0: ?
1: Gravity Bow (APG), Longshot (UC) Alter Winds (APG)  Anticipate Peril (UM)

[StreamOfTheSky]

Sorc 2 actually adds +1 BAB, so it doesn't hurt entry time.  Could come after AA 10, but I figured if anything the last ZAM level would be coming in at the end.

Frigid touch is a melee touch spell.  If you're imbuing it into an arrow, that means you're not full attacking, which means you're not flurrying and using the higher BAB.  And that spell works much better with a 18-20 or 19-20 crit weapon (combined with keen or imp. crit) than a bow, which is 20/x3.  Other than gravity bow, which works fine off of a wand, I'm actually kinda skeptical of how useful any of those spells you mentioned are...

[deuxhero]

And in a edit while you were posting I realized it likely can't be imbued anyways as it isn't an "area" spell.

I never really claimed any of the spells were good, just should be rated.

Oh, Vanish is decent enough if you do opt to replace the skill monkey.

[wolflord]

A dip into ninja seemed kind of fun to expand your ki pool options, since the ki pool is treated as one pool with options from both classes.  I seem to recall there being a decent rogue talent/trick swap but I can't recall it now.

Anyhow, I tried the Sorcerer/Zen archer build recently and it seems pretty awesome (at least on paper).  We made 6th lvl characters.  Here is what I did.  I always min/max my characters and I like it that way.  Yes, I know it could be dangerous with the min stats (speficically if drained) but I like a challenge.  I see the character as very mobile and fast, able to escape quickly if caught in melee or tripped.  AFAIK there is no issues with doing both qingong and zen archer on the same character since wingong says you "can" swap abilites, not that you have to.  Feel free to comment/suggest improvements/rip off anything here. 

Human Empyreal Bloodline Tattooed Sorcerer 1 / Qing-ong Zen Archer 5.

STR 16
DEX 14
CON 13
INT 8
WIS 22 (Base 17: Human +2, 4th lvl +1, headband of Cha +2)
CHA 7

AC: 19
Initiative mod: +8
Ki pool: 9
Perfect strikes/day: 5

Why I like it:

Human: Extra feat and the skills offset my low INT.
Traits: (Religion) Wisdom in the flesh: Acrobatics and (Combat) Reactionary (+2 initiative)
Empyreal bloodline: Uses WIS to power all casting abilities.  Synergistic with Monk using WIS for ki and other stuff.
Tattooed sorcerer: Gives me a familiar that can safely hide in my skin, which I took a compsognathus for the +4 initiative (of course).  Also gives me Alertness for free. Also gives me +1 CL on transmutation so my enlarge person and gravity bow last twice as long.   Not too shabby. 
Sorcerer: Single lvl dip gives me +2 will save, more skills, light, detect magic, spark (so useful with any sort of webbing around), ghost sound, gravity bow, enlarge person, and feather fall (expanded arcana feat).  Feather fall is ALWAYS good to have on standby, especially since I trade away all my monk falling stuff.  Also gives me access to all arcane wands/scrolls/items without needing UMD.  I do suffer a minor setback on my BAB, but nothing too serious.
Composite longbow (Str +3): An extra 3 damage per hit, yes please!
Monkey Style Feat: No Ac or attack penalties when prone.  Crawling or standing up does not provoke attacks of opportunity.  Succeed on dc 20 acrobatics check to stand up as a swift action.  Add Wis bonus to acrobatics check (note that this is now double wis bonus thanks to Wisdom in the flesh trait).  With the required 5 ranks in acrobatics to qualify for this feat I now auto-stand up as a swift action as my total bonus to acrobatics is 20.  I also had to take 5 ranks in climb to qualify for the style feat, but it never hurts to have some climb.
Ki powers: Scorching ray (fire goooood) and true strike (+20 to hit with no concealment means I can hit almost anything when I need to).
Efficient quiver:  To store all of my arrows, wands, or a backup bow and grant easy/quick access
Wand of Abundant Ammo: Trade 1 round of attacking to cast and give me unlimited specialized non-magic ammo with minimal investment Buy one or two of each kind of arrow and watch as the spell automagically replenishes them.  (Trip arrows, Tanglefoot arrows, Adamantine arrows, Alchemical Silver Arrows, Blunt arrows, Cold iron arrows, The dreaded Slow Burn arrows, etc.)

Feats:
Human: Expanded Arcana (Feather fall)
1st lvl: Rapid Shot
Monk 1st: Point Blank Shot, Improved unarmed strike
Zen Archer 1st: Perfect Strike
Monk 2nd: Precise Shot
Zen Archer 2nd: Weapon focus (Composite longbow)
Zen Archer 3rd: Point Blank master
3rd lvl: Deadly Aim
5th lvl: Monkey Style

Equipment of note:
+1 Flaming composite longbow (Str +3)
Efficient quiver
Headband of Wisdom +2
Wand of Abundant Ammo

At lvl 6, I have +10 (+11 if 30') to hit while flurrying, doing 1d8 base +1d6 fire +2 deadly aim (+3 if 30') +1 magic weapon +3 str PER arrow that hits.  Ave 13 / Max of 21 damage per hit. 

Tho reading your guide, perhaps I should swap our rapid shot at lvl 1 for something else.  I thought it was a requirement for something decent later on, but now I can't find it.  Suggestions?
------------------------------------------------------
Edited

So I played this character through one more level before our campaign came to a halt (DM was too busy IRL).  This is what I ultimately changed or added when I played it.

With my high CMD of 26 I was never grappled and if I was I was up and running away to shoot things the next round.  The extra ki points also helped provide a movement boost when I really needed to get across a room and away from something dangerous, or get up onto a rooftop or elevated position to fire at things.

Ki powers: Dumped Scorching ray and True strike and instead picked up Barkskin and Feather Step.  I didn't have much trouble hitting things so True strike wasn't needed and scorching ray just paled in comparison to the damage output from my bow.  At lvl 8 barkskin bumps me up from a 20 to a 23 AC.  Feather step is pure utility, but I figured that the whole point of my character is to be nimble and never get slowed down, so this keeps me moving (and alive).

Feats:
7th lvl: Extra Ki: For when you really need another few attacks to take something big down fast.  Caster's hated me.
Zen Archer 6- Improved Precise Shot: No concealment/cover penalties unless total cover.
Zen Archer 6- Weapon Spec. (longbow): +2 damage means up to +6 damage in a round assuming all arrows hit with FOB (+2 if you use Ki for another attack).

By the end, if I had a round or two of prep to cast both gravity bow and abundant ammo, I was firing 3 shots per round doing 2d6 base (gravity bow) +1d6 fire +4 deadly aim (+5 if 30') +1 magic weapon +3 str +2 Weapon Spec PER arrow that hits.  Ave 20 / Max of 29 damage per hit.  That was anywhere from 60-87 damage assuming all three hit.  If i used a ki point to get an extra attack and hit as well, it bumped it up to 80-116 in a single round.

I did feel kinda dirty sometimes and the GM started having all his NPCs carry javelins and other ranged weapons, which really hurt when they concentrated fire on me.  I did manage to kill a poor evil cleric in a single round before he got to do anything, which was a huge help tot he party, but kinda annoyed the GM.  For this character it was really all about getting someplace where melee guys couldn't get at you, then prioritizing the targets. 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Interesting build.  Are you prestige classing to advance CL eventually?

You're correct, all of the Qinggong options are not required, so it stacks with anything except martial artist archetype, basically.  Dipping Ninja for ki would be inefficient; your pools merge and use one stat, so you would not get 1 + cha or 1 + wis modifier (I'm assuming ninja 2, hence the 1) extra ki, you would merely get 1.  That is not to say ninja isn't necessarily decent for other benefits.  And there is a rogue talent for a ki pool that says if you already have one you instead gain +1/2 wis modifier extra points.  Even if your wis is huge, that may not be worth it, but it could be.  Extra Ki feat is +2.  If you had wis 22, it'd be +3 from the talent.  Ninja can take rogue talents, so you could still get that as a ninja.

Rapid Shot is required for Snap Shot (which also does nothing for you) which in turn is required for Imp. Snap Shot.  It was probably that, otherwise I have no idea what useful thing you saw that it was a pre-req for.  I would ditch it, Imp. Snap Shot isn't available until your 13th level feat and requires literally wasting two other feats on stuff that does absolutely positively nothing for you.

Feats otherwise seem fine, if you're happy w/ the expanded arcana.  Be sure to get Clustered Shots as soon as you hit +6 BAB.  See if your DM will let you get it at 7th level -- you have full BAB when full attacking, and CS can only be used WHEN full attacking.  And when you hit next level in ZAM, of course be sure to get Improved Precise Shot.

I know you like scorching ray, but it does 4d6 (avg. 14) fire, which is commonly resisted.  You'll get more shots later, but each applies energy resist separately.  Compare to what your arrows deal and how many of them you can fire in a turn.  Keep in mind for 1 ki point (scorching ray costs 2), you can get a whole other attack in.  It seems like a complete and utter waste to me.  I'd get gaseous form or barkskin instead, if you can change it.

[Slaughterhouserock]

Oh, and does anyone know if this trait exists JUST to screw over Tieflings for daring to be...still mechanically inferior to humans?  Or can non-tieflings take it.  The first words of the fluff text say, "You're a tiefling."  But it's not a race trait and there's no tiefling-only note.  Getting a cantrip at will is sort of good if others can take it.  I suppose using Adopted works anyway.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/council-of-thieves/infernal-bastard

Yes, and the book explicitly says so:

Tiefling Trait: If your GM allows bonus traits, he might require your tiefling character to take the “Infernal Bastard” trait (see page 9); this trait is designed to “depower” the basic tiefling race to bring it more in line with the power afforded to a typical PC race.

Admittedly, in the first book of the CoT adventure path, there are customized tieflings based on ancestry.  These can get you just about any racial ability score adjustments you'd want for your character as well as about 100 replacements for their darkness ability.  None of which is in the PFSRD that I know of, unfortunately.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Nope, it's in the d20pfsrd.  Click on "monsters as PCs" link under races in the left sidebar, and scroll down to tieflings.  Of course, those 100 options mostly suck ass and the text says to roll RANDOMLY to decide the main racial quality you'll be stuck with for the life of the character...yeah, no thanks.

That's a bummer on the trait, though.  Tieflings are so very much NOT the best race it's not even funny.  Oh well, in that case *would* adopted work with it in order to gain that trait?  Not sure 2 traits for one at will cantrip is mechanically "worth it," but it could be cool.

[Slaughterhouserock]

Nope, it's in the d20pfsrd.  Click on "monsters as PCs" link under races in the left sidebar, and scroll down to tieflings.  Of course, those 100 options mostly suck ass and the text says to roll RANDOMLY to decide the main racial quality you'll be stuck with for the life of the character...yeah, no thanks.

That's a bummer on the trait, though.  Tieflings are so very much NOT the best race it's not even funny.  Oh well, in that case *would* adopted work with it in order to gain that trait?  Not sure 2 traits for one at will cantrip is mechanically "worth it," but it could be cool.

Ah, good catch.  I never really used the site and a quick search didn't turn up anything.

RAW it doesn't work because, for some bizarre reason, it's a campaign trait rather than a racial trait.  I don't think it's unreasonable to houserule otherwise, though it would be a much better option than most other traits(that I recall).

[StreamOfTheSky]

And I in turn never noticed Adopted was limited to actual racial traits, and no traits that require race in general.  PF's traits system proves to be even more random bs, dang.

It would cost you 2 traits though, so I don't think it'd be that powerful.  One feat (equal to 2 traits supposedly) gets casters an extra cantrip known.  This could be used for noncasters (*gasp!* they'd get a nice thing!) but otherwise not much different.

[Hallack]

Added you to the Pathfinder Handbook and Handy Links Index.

[Garryl]

Is it just me, or did they change Flurry of Blows? Did it always function just as TWF? I thought it was full BaB and just extra attacks, like in 3.5. Wouldn't that kind of invalidate its use with ZAM, since you only wield one bow?

Nope, it's in the d20pfsrd.  Click on "monsters as PCs" link under races in the left sidebar, and scroll down to tieflings.  Of course, those 100 options mostly suck ass and the text says to roll RANDOMLY to decide the main racial quality you'll be stuck with for the life of the character...yeah, no thanks.

That's a bummer on the trait, though.  Tieflings are so very much NOT the best race it's not even funny.  Oh well, in that case *would* adopted work with it in order to gain that trait?  Not sure 2 traits for one at will cantrip is mechanically "worth it," but it could be cool.

Links:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/monsters-as-pcs#TOC-Tiefling
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/fiendish-heritage

If it didn't cost a feat and wasn't a ~1 in 5,000,000 chance, Tieflings would make great Sorcerers. +2 Con, +4 Cha, +1 HP/level, and another 2 Cha if you go Abyssal or Infernal bloodline. Given that there are actually a couple of decent possibilities for the second random trait (in place of +1 HP/level), the odds are actually a bit higher of being pro Sorcy. A 1/day reroll isn't bad, for instance. Or get yet another point of Cha for your class features.

For a ZAM (since this is, after all, a thread discussing them), how about Oni-spawn (+2 Str/Wis, -2 Cha) or Devil-spawn (+2 Con/Wis, -2 Cha) with +2 Wis and, um, damned if I know. Maybe the Levitation at low levels? Or the standard 1/day reroll, can't go wrong with that.

[StreamOfTheSky]

The recent "clarification" *cough*bullshit!*cough* about flurry of blows flies directly against the actual RAW text, sample monks have been given statblocks showing flurry w/ a single weapon in official products, and...archetypes like ZAM.  And as you noted, if you were to go by it, ZAM is literally unplayable.  So I refuse to acknowledge its existence in my guide, as doing so makes the entire guide pointless.  If you play in PF Society, you can't play a ZAM or any other monk.  It's as simple (and unfortunate) as that.

Back to guide discussion...  The main reason not to include Oni-Spawn or Devil-Spawn is that they're not from one of the covered sources.  Traits, due to their clusterfucked nature, got an exception.  I am open to expanding the sources list, though.  But...what is the appeal of those two over Oread and Dwarf, respectively?  It's the same stat mods, and both of those (especially dwarf) have some nice other features.  With enough work/luck with those variants, I suppose Tiefling can be better, but not by that much, right?