Zen Fundamentalist [base] (Magipunk)

[Nanshork]

I wouldn't play a Zen Fundamentalist 20, but I'd multiclass one like crazy with Zen Training. Synthevolver 2/Morphling 1/Dodger 1/ZF 16 has a lot of swag, and most of it is at full strength or close to it. More classes than that runs into diminishing returns, unfortunately.

Remember, Zen Training as written applies to one single class feature not the class itself.

[Garryl]

I wouldn't play a Zen Fundamentalist 20, but I'd multiclass one like crazy with Zen Training. Synthevolver 2/Morphling 1/Dodger 1/ZF 16 has a lot of swag, and most of it is at full strength or close to it. More classes than that runs into diminishing returns, unfortunately.

Remember, Zen Training as written applies to one single class feature not the class itself.

And 8 bonus feats means I can easily spend 6 of them to be almost gestalt, at least on the classes whose low-level class features are the real meat, like Synthevolver (Evolution and optionally Evolution 0; Next Stage is just a bonus), Morphling (Morph is all-in-one, though the other class features are a nice boost), and Planeswalker (the whole nodes thing is wrapped up pretty neatly in only two class features). Dodger is just a nice supplement for Sneak Attack and Versatility (extra nice when all skills are class skills and you get Int boost(s)). Invocations are available at Holomancer 1. All it takes is one good thing.

[Shiki]

If Zen Training works as Garryl describes it, and from reading it my thoughts were that it works that way too, I think it is kind of hax with all those bonus feats, ah.

[sirpercival]

Erp... that is ripe for abuse in ways I didn't think about.

*smacked in the face by CONSEQUENCES*

Is this overkill?  Should I change how it works?  What's the thought?

Also, I've added a little clarification on a couple things to Zen Training, though it doesn't change anything.

[Garryl]

Zen Training is very strong if used wisely. I'd consider limiting it to only a single class as a possible balancing method.

Is Fundamental supposed to let you use both ability modifiers or just the highest one when applying an ability modifier to an attribute that already normally benefits from one ability score (eg: Adding Con to your Charisma-based skill checks, is your bonus Cha + Con or only the higher of the two). The new wording is unclear.

Possible clearer wording:

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At 1st level, a zen fundamentalist chooses one attribute from list I for each of his ability scores. He applies that ability modifier to the chosen attribute, in addition to any other ability modifiers he may already add to it.  If the chosen attribute already benefits from the chosen ability modifier, the two do not stack (use the higher bonus, if applicable).  He chooses another attribute for each of his ability scores from each appropriate list at levels 5, 10, and 15; he may choose an attribute from a lower list that has not yet been chosen. A zen fundamentalist cannot choose the same attribute more than once, even for different ability scores.

[sirpercival]

Yes, that is better on both counts.  I shall edit thusly.

[sirpercival]

What is the action type for Zen Mirror?

Depends on what you're trying to mirror.

You should put something about that in the ability description.   

Zen mirror (Su or Ex): A zen fundamentalist of 3rd level or higher can mimic other creatures' special abilities.  Once per day per class level (but no more than once per round), the zen fundamentalist can attempt to mimic a supernatural or extraordinary ability that he has seen some other creature use within the past 10 minutes.  To do so, he must first identify the ability (in exactly the same way he would identify the creature using it), and then roll a d20, modified by his zen fundamentalist level, against a DC equal to 5 + the creature's HD; attempting to perform a zen mirror takes the same type of action that the mirrored ability required.  If he is successful, he performs the chosen ability (using his zen fundamentalist level in place of the creature's HD and his ability modifiers in place of the creature's, if necessary).  If he fails the check, the zen fundamentalist wastes both the one daily use of zen mirror and the given action.

Was that not clear?

[Nanshork]

I missed it in the mini wall of text, sorry. 

[Garryl]

I think I figured out why I keep forgetting this class. Aside from Zen Mirror (which literally doesn't let you do anything that nobody else can do), all this class does is add numbers.

[sirpercival]

I think I figured out why I keep forgetting this class. Aside from Zen Mirror (which literally doesn't let you do anything that nobody else can do), all this class does is add numbers.

Yes... that's true.  Do you have any suggestions?

I may replace this class with Nullblade, once it's finished.

[Garryl]

I think I figured out why I keep forgetting this class. Aside from Zen Mirror (which literally doesn't let you do anything that nobody else can do), all this class does is add numbers.

Yes... that's true.  Do you have any suggestions?

I may replace this class with Nullblade, once it's finished.

Try to figure out what a Zen Fundamentalist does. A Nullblade says "no." A Dodger dodges stuff. A Domeskipper hunts big game and rivals Repo Dogs for badass awards (which are, naturally, all won by Domeskipper/Repo Dogs, duh). A Zen Fundamentalist... metagames? I dunno, that's the best I can think of of what the class actually does.

"Yo, dawg. I'm so in tune with the universe, I can add my Cha to my Will saves and I have tons of bonus feats."
"WTF is a Cha and what are you doing saving anything in your will? You'll be dead when that thing is read. And unless you've been seeing that alley Medic down by Fifth, I'm pretty sure you only have two feet."

Are there any Magipunk classes that don't have at least one PrC designed for them to use? Try to figure out what kind of a PrC a ZF would go into, and then work back from there. Maybe that will help.

[Jackinthegreen]

A Zen Fundamentalist uses some stats for certain things on top of what normally affects them, which is just bigger numbers at that point.  It can multiclass fairly well, but that's owing to it buffing something unique to another class.

The ZF needs options besides bigger numbers, and it needs them to be fairly simple too.  Sure we could make improved versions of each of the different stats (like if Dex is adding to run speed, it also allows the character to fly.  If Str was adding to speed though, it'd grant borrow or something) but that gets messy fairly fast.

I'm kinda lost at the moment, but I'm sure something will come up that helps.

Edit: Shower was good for one thing: The PrC for this class should be named Zen Master.

Hmm..  How about being so in tune with things at later levels that the ZF can Take 10 on more than just skill checks?  Attack rolls for instance, with the caveat that such an attack can't crit even if 10 is within the weapon's actual crit range.

[sirpercival]

Still numbers, kinda...

Brainstorm: what if I rework it into a swordsage-y Martial Adept??

[Jackinthegreen]

Maneuvers would give it a better feel, yes.  Diamond Mind in particular seems fitting.

[Wrex]

Maneuvers would give it a better feel, yes.  Diamond Mind in particular seems fitting.

Particularly. Shadow Hand and whatever the sun school was also sound appropriate.


I think the main class issue is that the class has almost no abilities of it's own, relying on feats and multiclassing to cover the job. I also think, that the structure of the class also kind of discourages adding any actual abilities to it. And four+int skill points kinda sucks for a skill monkey. For suggestions, I have the following:

Anti-Magic/Psi: Give him the ability to actually do what the monk was intended to do

Gish: More psionics support is gravy. This guy being a sort of single classed Zerth Cenobite makes perfect senes, although he needs new abilities so as not to step on the Dodger's toes too much

Skill Monkey Let most of his things stand as is, but boost skill points, and allow the poor blighter to select where boosts will go. The issue here is that If I swipes morph with Zen training, he is now a better morphling than the party bruiser.

[phaedrusxy]

I want to play a Nord's Blade/Zen Fundamentalist who takes the feat that lets him stack his class levels for his initiator level and maneuvers known... Bonus Luck feats at every other level = OMG haxxor for a Nord's Blade. I might have to have Loptr enter this... Why do I find myself wanting to multiclass that character into every class you make, SirP?

Joking aside... flavor and crunch-wise, this + Nord's Blade this seems like a match made in heaven.

[sirpercival]

Lol!  You like it because I am awesome

I wouldn't do too much with this yet, I'm not thrilled with the class and it's going to take some reworking.

[sirpercival]

OK, brainstorm time.

What are the elements from the current ZF that are essential? What can be axed?
~I really want to keep some sort of "apply X stat to Y bonus" as a part of this, since that was the original concept and inspiration; however, I think the current incarnation of the "Fundamentals" is a little unwieldy.  Maybe allow them to apply each stat bonus to one thing #/day?  And you can choose the combos on the fly?
~I think the "improve your low stats" thing is pretty awesome, and not game-breaking... it helps with MAD, particularly the XsYb thing above. One super-high stat is more problematic than a bunch of very good stats.
~I think zen mirror can go.  It was tacked on near the end, and just feels like too much to me.
~Altered consciousness goes.  It's boring.
~Bonus feats make some sense, but I think it should get fewer and the list should be more restricted.

What new stuff to add?
~Martial maneuvers.  I think I'll go with the swordsage progression; need a recovery mechanic that isn't craptastic.
~Disciplines.  Agreed on Diamond Mind; flavor-wise, I think that Riven Hourglass, Coin's Edge, and Sublime Tapestry make the most sense.  Shadow Hand seems meh  thematically; Setting Sun could work.  If we go with the swordsage 6 disciplines I include both; if 5 or 4 only, then SH and then SS get the axe.
~For a recovery mechanic, how about a move action to recover X maneuvers?  X could either be a set number, half of the number expended, or scale with level.  OR, alternatively, how about a variable amount?  Swift action recovers 1, move recovers 2, standard recovers 3, full-round recovers all.

What do you guys think of this?

[Garryl]

Yeah, the stat boosts and fundamentals (or whatever you'll call them) are kind of the point of the class, and are actually interesting if they aren't the only thing around.

How about a move action to recover an amount equal to 1 plus your lowest stat's modifier (minimum 1)? Or your average ability modifier, so as to not screw over anyone who has a nonability (or just your lowest ability modifier for an ability score you have).

If you're getting rid of Zen Mirror, I'd also advocate removing Zen Training as well. That feat has been problematic from day one, just because there are so many classes whose sole purposes are wrapped up in only one or two low-level class features. Without Zen Mirror, the feat doesn't even have the copycat class thing going for it.

If you're giving Sublime Tapestry, make sure to give at least 4 other disciplines to go with it, otherwise higher level maneuvers will be very difficult to use. If you're using Triumvirate Strike, you'll need Sublime Tapestry and 3 other disciplines, and you'll probably want to initiate a boost and/or counter to go with it. So a minimum of 5 total disciplines, then, possibly 6 (but the 6th isn't as vital).

While we're at it, I think the ZF needs a new picture. Unarmed, (How the heck did I miss the scythe sword thingy in his right hand every single time?) unarmored existential fighting monks don't really jive with the whole cyberpunk feel, and it's counter to the actual mechanics of the class to boot (medium armor proficiency, no unarmed combat stuff except that one thing in list 2 or 3).

[phaedrusxy]

While we're at it, I think the ZF needs a new picture.

Here is a suggestion.

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