Immortality: A Guide to Eternal Life discussion

[Retrokinesis]

So a long while back I, under my old username MasterVerhoffin on the old BG boards, wrote this handbook as a way to compile all the various ways to control aging in D&D. Now, nijineko was kind enough to port it to the new boards so I wasn't lost. I was wondering if I could gain control over it again; I'd like to clean it up a bit and there's a few methods I missed.

Also, please contribute anything I missed that you're aware of here!

[nijineko]

you're welcome, and sounds good to me. anyone have any idea how to transfer ownership?

[nijineko]

Handbook link.

Retrokinesis, you still out there?

If we can't transfer ownership, I could at least send you an editable copy so you could shoot it back to me with those additions you mentioned.

[Nanshork]

Handbook link.

Retrokinesis, you still out there?

If we can't transfer ownership, I could at least send you an editable copy so you could shoot it back to me with those additions you mentioned.

The mods can do it if Retrokinesis is still around.

[nijineko]

i guess i should have asked the mods directly instead of posting the question and leaving it. oh well. thanks, nanshork.

[Nanshork]

i guess i should have asked the mods directly instead of posting the question and leaving it. oh well. thanks, nanshork.

No worries.

[taltamir]

Thanks for the handbook.
I came across (an EXTREMELY awful) option for immortality that is pathfinder only
https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/soulbound-shell

Pros:
1. construct traits (except immunity to mind affecting)

Drawbacks:
1. While anyone with CL12+ qualifies, Only clerics, wizards, and witches may still cast spells afterwads
2. You lose the ability to change your spells known and spells prepared. As written, this also means that leveling up prevents you from getting access to higher level spells.

[nijineko]

Thanks for the handbook.
I came across (an EXTREMELY awful) option for immortality that is pathfinder only
https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/soulbound-shell

Pros:
1. construct traits (except immunity to mind affecting)

Drawbacks:
1. While anyone with CL12+ qualifies, Only clerics, wizards, and witches may still cast spells afterwads
2. You lose the ability to change your spells known and spells prepared. As written, this also means that leveling up prevents you from getting access to higher level spells.

lo and behold, the return of the 2e lich, pathfinder style.

[taltamir]

lo and behold, the return of the 2e lich, pathfinder style.

Now I am curious, what was the 2e lich like?

Also, how does one become a ghost? If you can just die and remain as a ghost with a +5 LA then it might be the ideal benchmark against which other forms of "immortality" are measures.

[nijineko]

lo and behold, the return of the 2e lich, pathfinder style.

Now I am curious, what was the 2e lich like?

Also, how does one become a ghost? If you can just die and remain as a ghost with a +5 LA then it might be the ideal benchmark against which other forms of "immortality" are measures.

one of the key traits of the 2e lich was that they could never learn spells again, which personally, makes sense to me for a corporeal undead creature. so wizards were always hesitant to take that final step, trying to beef up their spells before they committed to such a drastic measure.

becoming a ghost upon death requires DM cooperation. technically, whenever a character dies, they automatically become a ghost... but the bit about having a goal strong enough to remain in life, and taking one or more levels in the template, is what requires negotiation with the DM. personally, it is an option I always offer to my players. encourages better background development, or at least lets them finish out the current plot thread before switching characters - gives the players time to plan what to do next, too.

due to the adjusted rules on templates, the +5 LA doesn't have to all be applied at once, just the first +1 LA. besides, most definitions of "immortal" include "alive" as a prereq. ^^

=D

[taltamir]

Thanks for the history lesson

besides, most definitions of "immortal" include "alive" as a prereq. ^^

=D

I agree, but most of the options given in the handbook are not actually alive. Which is a shame.
My favorite method is the reincarnation one.

[nijineko]

Thanks for the history lesson

besides, most definitions of "immortal" include "alive" as a prereq. ^^

=D

I agree, but most of the options given in the handbook are not actually alive. Which is a shame.
My favorite method is the reincarnation one.

that's d&d for you.

[The_Laughing_Man]

Here are some additions:

Ensul's soultheft (Waterdeep p152) Greater Planar Bind/Gate in a Black Ethergaunt (FF p65) and drain it for a 40 day extension to your life. You should drain high intelligence beings or beings with spell levels. Black ethergaunt fits the bill in both ways as it has int 31 and 9th level spells.

True reincarnate (Master's of the Wild p96, 3.0) No level or constitution loss and you get to roll twice for the new form. There is 1000xp cost.

Stasis clone (Lord's of Darkness p189, 3.0) Clone yourself multiple times and stash your clones somewhere safe. If you don't run out of your clones you'll virtually live forever (or very very long).

Astral projection (SRD) and planeshift back to material plane. You can adventure with impunity and astral project again if you happen to die (even for old age, because your original body is still young).

The Forest Master (Faith's and Pantheons p192, 3.0). Forest longevity (Ex) doubles your max age.

Magic Jar (SRD), possess a new body and go to town, your old body is debatably dead and does not age. Maybe gentle repose is needed as well. Rinse and repeat, and you'll live very long.

Cocoon (SpC p.49), no level and constitution loss reincarnate. It has to be cast at most 1 round/CL after death. There is 250 xp cost.

Andrathath’s mask (Waterdeep p.68), An artifact that gives longevity without needing lichdom. The problem is that this artifact is nowhere described. So it is DM territory.

Deathless from Eberron do not die.

[vaz]

Why should you attempt to drain High Int, Dangerous foes like that? Why not just go for weaker things, like Lammasu which can only get Cleric 4ths? Black Ethergaunts are supremely intelligent and with 9th level spells, and can do pretty much anything you can do as a full caster.

[taltamir]

Why should you attempt to drain High Int, Dangerous foes like that? Why not just go for weaker things, like Lammasu which can only get Cleric 4ths? Black Ethergaunts are supremely intelligent and with 9th level spells, and can do pretty much anything you can do as a full caster.

I agree with this question, draining multiple weaker things is much more sane and safe then draining a few high powered things

[Leviathan]

I think the real money in Ensul's Soultheft may be in draining psions and such - one day per power point can get pretty big. A 7th-level psion is much more manageable than the ethergaunt, but gives you more days of immortality. Of course, this requires that you inhabit a setting with psionics.

[The_Laughing_Man]

Why should you attempt to drain High Int, Dangerous foes like that? Why not just go for weaker things, like Lammasu which can only get Cleric 4ths? Black Ethergaunts are supremely intelligent and with 9th level spells, and can do pretty much anything you can do as a full caster.

Um, because this is the minmaxboards? And in this case we try to max it Now, I didn't say it was going to be easy. But yes of course there are easier targets.

I think I have gotten my calculation wrong, ie. with Black Ethergaunt the extension would be 31 int + 50 "sum of the spell levels" = 81 days.

I think the real money in Ensul's Soultheft may be in draining psions and such - one day per power point can get pretty big. A 7th-level psion is much more manageable than the ethergaunt, but gives you more days of immortality. Of course, this requires that you inhabit a setting with psionics.

That is true, there likely are some psionic monsters that give a nice hefty extension to your life. I did not look for psions for my example. Maybe somebody can find the ultimate psionic candidate.

[taltamir]

because this is the minmaxboards?

Going after high risk low reward things is the opposite of minmax.
going after low risk high reward is min maxing.

Proper minmaxing would be to find the absolute weakest victim that still gives you immortality

[The_Laughing_Man]

because this is the minmaxboards?

Going after high risk low reward things is the opposite of minmax.
going after low risk high reward is min maxing.

Proper minmaxing would be to find the absolute weakest victim that still gives you immortality

Proper minmaxing? That is quite presumptuous of you. Can further elaborate what is proper minmaxing for you? Preferrably on it's own thread, so that this thread stays on-topic. Because I feel we are not understanding each other now.

I'm merely maxing in a sense that what gives the most bang for the buck i.e. the largest extention to your life with one casting. You are talking about something else. So, I'm sorry, but we are talking about different things.

Anyway, this handook's author can decide what to include in the handbook. I posted my suggestions.

[vaz]

Someone wanting to extend their life will not waste their time risking it against a 17th level Wizard with 31 Intelligence, and that's even before they're put on an even keel considering how many goodies such a monster will have.

If you want to talk Intelligence, why not get a Steel Dragon Great Wyrm? It casts as a 21st level Sorcerer. However, again, you run into the problem that it is more dangerous than you. And yes, it does have Mantle of the Icy Soul ready for your Shivering Touch, because it's actually played at its intelligence and not WotC's "duh, uh ok I take Weapon Focus for all of my feats" standard feat idea.

Your attitude doesn't help. "because we're min-max" - it might be "what we do^tm" but at the same time, we try to do so intelligently - and at the least, telling a Wizard seeking immortality to locate a creature that's more powerful than he is, and ask that he be allowed to give him a pat on the back while you drain his intelligence (provided, of course, he's not already immune to said drain - and he will be, he's paranoid-wizard.com/go-away)

If you're going to do that, get yourself a Neraph with access to Metamorphic Transfer and some ability to change into a Visilight. Use that to bluff and diplomance the target into being your friend, removing his Mind Blank, and then being Diplomanced into Fanaticism. That. Or just be an Ardent using the Epic StP Erudite to get the spell as a Power (doesn't need to be actively involved, just present), and then putting it on a Mantle using the Substitute Power ACF.

That's Min/max and kinda cheesy (requires Spell to Power Erudites to reach Epic levels), but dead easy to do.