The language argument

[InnaBinder]

My respect for the human race falls down yet another notch.

I've been grading practical tests on Introduction to Computing(you know where they just do microsoft office). I've lost faith in humanity when a third of the class seems likely to fail on tests that involve formatting text, using excel formulas, shading boxes, borders....

In a recent 300 level (3rd year of college for those elsewhere in the world) English class, the professor was forced to give reminders on the following after grading the essays:

1. Fragments bad.
2. Run-on sentences are bad they make your paper hard to read you should not use them.
3. We're going to have a 20 minute refresher course on dangling participles, because folks are structuring sentences such that the direct object is the thing taking action.

[Mooncrow]

My respect for the human race falls down yet another notch.

I've been grading practical tests on Introduction to Computing(you know where they just do microsoft office). I've lost faith in humanity when a third of the class seems likely to fail on tests that involve formatting text, using excel formulas, shading boxes, borders....

In a recent 300 level (3rd year of college for those elsewhere in the world) English class, the professor was forced to give reminders on the following after grading the essays:

1. Fragments bad.
2. Run-on sentences are bad they make your paper hard to read you should not use them.
3. We're going to have a 20 minute refresher course on dangling participles, because folks are structuring sentences such that the direct object is the thing taking action.

I would have walked out of that class without a second thought.  If people are that shitty, call up a study group, or send them to tutoring - if I wanted to waste my time and money watching other people learn basic english, I could go take my 100 level courses again. 

Gah - lots of bad memories of that happening back in undergrad.  I quickly learned to take even basic courses with professors with tenure - they don't give a fuck about people failing. 

[altpersona]

the english language is a living, dynamic thing.

what was right 20 / 50 / 100 /200 ... / years ago is no long always or ever right today.

run your sentences on, spell words as you like, and screw grammar all together.

[Amechra]

the english language is a living, dynamic thing.

what was right 20 / 50 / 100 /200 ... / years ago is no long always or ever right today.

run your sentences on, spell words as you like, and screw grammar all together.

As long as, you know, your statement can be understood by all interacting parties.

Hell, if we could be sure that we could broadcast meaning to each-other through grunts, that would be all we would do.

[Kuroimaken]

the english language is a living, dynamic thing.

what was right 20 / 50 / 100 /200 ... / years ago is no long always or ever right today.

run your sentences on, spell words as you like, and screw grammar all together.

And it's exactly because it's a living, dynamic thing that we should learn to live with it, not antagonize it.

[X-Codes]

Just because something may not be correct 20 years from now doesn't mean you shouldn't do everything you can to make it right at this point in time.  If it's not correct now, it's gibberish.

[bhu]

Had long discussion with friends last night about why you cant be both a nazi and a communist and why they are not the same thing.   


Got to be more fun when socialism was brought up.  Tried explaining there's a difference between actually being a member of an ideological movement, and spouting bullshit pretending to be one so you can get elected. 

I swear sometimes it's like they're willfully ignorant.

[altpersona]

Just because something may not be correct 20 years from now doesn't mean you shouldn't do everything you can to make it right at this point in time.  If it's not correct now, it's gibberish.

point being, Right is an illusion.

the science of language is linguistics. this science isnt even about right and wrong, just mostly observation of patterns and developmental history. its a 'humanity'


language its self is an art.


its been my experience that 'Right' is about style, not correctness. collegiate writing cant even agree on A style. profession writing doesn't seem to even attempt standardization beyond script. (script, only just barely in a given community)

Wiktionary

Noun
gibberish (usually uncountable; plural gibberishes)
speech or writing that is unintelligible, incoherent or meaningless
needlessly obscure or overly technical language

no mention of unfashionable (out of style).

your use (x) of gibberish is either wrong, by the standard you seem to favor or correct enough by my statements that its all hooey as long as the intended message is understood by the target. (i think it was)

we are not even going to go into speech, that makes the written language look like arithmetic.

[Nanshork]

the english language is a living, dynamic thing.

what was right 20 / 50 / 100 /200 ... / years ago is no long always or ever right today.

run your sentences on, spell words as you like, and screw grammar all together.

As someone who graduated with a minor in English I have a lot of problems with this.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

English Teacher "fundamentalists" crack me up (these days).
I used to hate them with a passion.

If the completely nuts English spelling system
worked more like the Spanish spelling system,
the 3 to 20 (!) years it takes to make only about 70%
of the populace, to be functionally literate,
could be used to teach writing instead of spelling.

(how's that for a ridiculously long sentence, eh?)

People should be able to reproduce the sentences they speak
... or record into their phones.  You know, a transcript.
If they can't do that, a teaching system failed.
Badly.

[X-Codes]

There are two ways to look at language: as an art, and as a tool.  As a tool, language is used to communicate an idea to another person, and good grammar is required in order to communicate the idea effectively.  Classic example: "Lets eat grandpa!"

As an art, language must evoke a response from it's listener/reader/etc.  Without proper grammar, the intended effect is lost on the reader and is simply replaced by confusion.  Instead of thinking about what's for dinner, the reader is thinking about "Wait, do they want to eat grandpa?"  In other words, the meaning of your art is lost, and you suck as an artist.

I know that some people confuse being obtuse with being an artist, but they're really just obnoxious assholes that force people to suffer through their own incompetence because they're a complete failure at life.  Who better than a tenured, asshole professor to set them right before they're unleashed upon the world?

[altpersona]

the problem with

lets eat grampa

is not grammar

its phrasing and word choice.





language is a tool, but a whole barn full of tools wont build you a house.



in professional or creative writing, as long as the idea is communicated, then its done 'correctly'

a teacher or company or other some such may have style preference but 'right' is purely fantasy.

Posted by: Nanshork
« on: Today at 12:52:12 PM »

Quote from: altpersona on Today at 08:14:09 AM
the english language is a living, dynamic thing.

what was right 20 / 50 / 100 /200 ... / years ago is no long always or ever right today.

run your sentences on, spell words as you like, and screw grammar all together.

As someone who graduated with a minor in English I have a lot of problems with this.

every teacher i have ever had, had problems with it. rather than defend their position, they rely on a red marker and an unchallengable authority. (did i mention, i never got good grades in english classes that were not 'lits' )

"Ma babushka made quesadillas."

"my family has ran this business for 60 years, i have runned it for 5. "

"this page intentionally left blank"

"meet Paige, our new page. now turn to the page in our books about meat"

[Jackinthegreen]

The problem with "Let's eat Grandpa" is precisely grammar.  Simply add the comma in the proper spot and it becomes "Let's eat, Grandpa."  The capitalization of "Grandpa" is necessary because that is his name in this context.

Alt, is English your first language?  The grammar, punctuation, and spelling errors lead me to believe you're not familiar with it.

[Amechra]

I think he just has philosophical issues with the illogics of the English language.

[altpersona]

yes  , english is my first and pretty much only language.

i can get around in several foreign countries, but iv only mastered the one language.



if you choose your words more betterer then you do not need to rely on odd punctuation and odd arcane rules.

[Jackinthegreen]

Choosing words wisely can certainly help with getting a point across, but having the proper punctuation makes it flow so much more smoothly in my eyes.

How would you use the English language if you were to be published though?  I assume you have no intentions of doing so, but just to satisfy my curiosity, what would you do?

[Amechra]

He would be a poet.

[sirpercival]

He would be a poet.

Not so; I'm a poet (though only self-published) and my grammar is usually impeccable; when I don't use punctuation, I use poetic structure to make my meaning perfectly clear.

[Mooncrow]

I think the greatest master of English punctuation that I know was a poet - e. e. cummings.  You can't play with the rules of structure if you don't know what they are. 

[Nanshork]

if you choose your words more betterer then you do not need to rely on odd punctuation and odd arcane rules.

You do if you want people to pay attention to what you say.  Your poor word choice and improper grammar grate on me immensely.