Rules Quirks

[Lo77o]

You're allowed a reflex save and Evasion against a Fireball dropped on you while you're sleeping or otherwise oblivious to the world around you.

How do you figure that? A sleeping creature is a willing target. So he gets no saves.

[zook1shoe]

You're allowed a reflex save and Evasion against a Fireball dropped on you while you're sleeping or otherwise oblivious to the world around you.

How do you figure that? A sleeping creature is a willing target. So he gets no saves.

Cast painless death on them 
 http://dndtools.eu/spells/ghostwalk--94/painless-death--1375/


Dream Element creatures from an old dragon magazine lack a Wisdom score. Doesn't that make them objects, not creatures?
 http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#wisdomWis

[NiteCyper]

[Color] supports that Reflex is irrefutable.

You're allowed a reflex save and Evasion against a Fireball dropped on you while you're sleeping or otherwise oblivious to the world around you.

How do you figure that? A sleeping creature is a willing target. So he gets no saves.

As much as I think that explanation is awesome, the FAQ refutes it. Although I've read the opinions, I have yet to hold a strong opinion against the answers given as a result of FAQs. I have yet to find the source of it as of yet, however. However, the same quotation has been quoted elsewhere, so there is less of a chance that that quote is fake. Help?

That's not the only FAQ answer that refutes it either, but I can't find the other which may have been quoted at EN World. The other said that luck factors into the situation as some random thing that interrupts. A general refutation would be that, inferring from my search of the d20 SRD, "willing" is a term that only applies to spell descriptions.

Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.

The SRD makes no mention of "willing" under Combat > Combat Statistics > Saving Throws. In contradiction to the assertions of the Reflex saving throw representing luck, there is no mention of luck in the description of Reflex in the same section. This EN World post asserts that Reflex includes luck, and StreamOfTheSky agrees. It does not cite a source.

[JohnnyMayHymn]

stuff

what FAQ is that from?

[dman11235]

This is the condition that dictates sleep.  You'll note that the wording is "treat dex as 0", not "treat reflex save as fail".  So yes, a sleeping character can succeed at a reflex save.  However, if you make a case that "sleeping" indicates "unconscious", then sleeping creatures are considered willing, which applies only to spells that have the "willing" tag, so they do not get a throw against those spells.  Still would against Fireball.  And still would if "sleeping" does not mean "unconscious", which I don't think it does in the game.

[Kethrian]

To be fair, if you dex is treated as 0, your reflex saves are still losing any previous dex mod, and gaining a -5 penalty...

[dman11235]

Yes, but that's not "automatically fail", it's just "likely fail".

[NiteCyper]

Tl;dr: Sleeping ≠ unconscious.

This is the condition that dictates sleep.  You'll note that the wording is "treat dex as 0", not "treat reflex save as fail".  So yes, a sleeping character can succeed at a reflex save.  However, if you make a case that "sleeping" indicates "unconscious", then sleeping creatures are considered willing, which applies only to spells that have the "willing" tag, so they do not get a throw against those spells.  Still would against Fireball.  And still would if "sleeping" does not mean "unconscious", which I don't think it does in the game.

Damnit, you're right. What seals the deal is this enumeration:

A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious...

Because it lists both "sleeping" and "unconscious", it is clear that they are mutually exclusive. There is other evidence, being the lack thereof asserting that sleeping is unconscious (but not necessarily vice versa).

[DonQuixote]

My favorite rules quirk, which was pointed out to me by Hanako, is that disintegrate has no effect on trees.

(click to show/hide)

A thin, green ray springs from your pointing finger. You must make a successful ranged touch attack to hit. Any creature struck by the ray takes 2d6 points of damage per caster level (to a maximum of 40d6). Any creature reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by this spell is entirely disintegrated, leaving behind only a trace of fine dust. A disintegrated creature’s equipment is unaffected.

A tree is not a creature.

When used against an object, the ray simply disintegrates as much as one 10-foot cube of nonliving matter. Thus, the spell disintegrates only part of any very large object or structure targeted. The ray affects even objects constructed entirely of force, such as forceful hand or a wall of force, but not magical effects such as a globe of invulnerability or an antimagic field.

Trees are made of living matter.

[zook1shoe]

My favorite rules quirk, which was pointed out to me by Hanako, is that disintegrate has no effect on trees.

(click to show/hide)

A thin, green ray springs from your pointing finger. You must make a successful ranged touch attack to hit. Any creature struck by the ray takes 2d6 points of damage per caster level (to a maximum of 40d6). Any creature reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by this spell is entirely disintegrated, leaving behind only a trace of fine dust. A disintegrated creature’s equipment is unaffected.

A tree is not a creature.

When used against an object, the ray simply disintegrates as much as one 10-foot cube of nonliving matter. Thus, the spell disintegrates only part of any very large object or structure targeted. The ray affects even objects constructed entirely of force, such as forceful hand or a wall of force, but not magical effects such as a globe of invulnerability or an antimagic field.

Trees are made of living matter.

thats hilarious!!!

a living wood shield can protect you from disintegrate and pyroclastic dragons

trees also don't have Wisdom and Charisma which "all creatures have" and therefore are objects

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#theAbilities

[Averien]

This is a bit convoluted, but...

A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (-5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks gets no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

  From the Helpless section.

A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed.

  From ability damage section.

So, if you are helpless, you are by default treated as paralyzed.

A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can’t swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares.

So, you can make only mental actions while you are sleeping.  If you can make a case that making a reflex save is purely mental action, then I guess you get a reflex save while sleeping. 

[littha]

a living wood shield can protect you from disintegrate and pyroclastic dragons

The shield wouldn't be destroyed... you probably would. Also Pyroclastic dragon breath only targets creatures anyway.

[Maat Mons]

sleeping … paralyzed

I'm suddenly reminded of some of my worse sleeping experiences. 

[DonQuixote]

sleeping … paralyzed

I'm suddenly reminded of some of my worse sleeping experiences.

You're crazy.  Sleep paralysis is responsible for my best sleeping experiences.

This might be because I have no problem with waking up, incapable of movement, only to hear a low voice growl "Go back to sleep," followed by heavy footfalls and the front door slamming.  Or waking up, incapable of movement, only to look over and see my roommate turning into Slender Man.

[zook1shoe]

a living wood shield can protect you from disintegrate and pyroclastic dragons

The shield wouldn't be destroyed... you probably would. Also Pyroclastic dragon breath only targets creatures anyway.

living wood tower shield for cover?

[NiteCyper]

(click to show/hide)

This is a bit convoluted, but...

A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (-5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks gets no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

  From the Helpless section.

A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed.

  From ability damage section.

So, if you are helpless, you are by default treated as paralyzed.

A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can’t swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares.

So, you can make only mental actions while you are sleeping.  If you can make a case that making a reflex save is purely mental action, then I guess you get a reflex save while sleeping.

A helpless character is paralyzed, [...] sleeping, [or] unconscious.

A is B, B2, and B3.

A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (-5 modifier).

A is C.

A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed.

C is B.

A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless.

B is C and A.

A paralyzed character [...] can take purely mental actions.

C can D.

C is not necessarily A. B2 isn't necessarily A, B, B3, nor C. In the preceding sentence, B2 interchanged with B3, is. Ergo, an opponent being paralyzed is not premise "to deliver a coup de grace". I don't want to mess with this anymore; I don't want to have to read all of this, right now.

Creatures capable of taking purely mental actions (such as manifesting powers) can do so.

If B2 is C, then B2 can D. A sleeping character can manifest powers‽

[EjoThims]

(click to show/hide)

This is a bit convoluted, but...

A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (-5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks gets no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

  From the Helpless section.

A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed.

  From ability damage section.

So, if you are helpless, you are by default treated as paralyzed.

A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can’t swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares.

So, you can make only mental actions while you are sleeping.  If you can make a case that making a reflex save is purely mental action, then I guess you get a reflex save while sleeping.

A helpless character is paralyzed, [...] sleeping, unconscious.

A is B, B2, and B3.

A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (-5 modifier).

A is C.

A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed.

C is B.

Fixed that, you had it backwards.

Also, if A = B and A = C, then C = B anyway.

If A = B, A = C, and B = C, then all terms above grant all condition

A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless.

C is B and A.

A paralyzed character [...] can take purely mental actions.

C can D.

B is not necessarily A. B2 isn't necessarily A, B, B3, nor C. In the preceding sentence, B2 interchanged with B3, is. Ergo, an opponent being paralyzed is not premise "to deliver a coup de grace". I don't want to mess with this anymore; I don't want to have to read all of this, right now.

Creatures capable of taking purely mental actions (such as manifesting powers) can do so.

If B2 is C, then B2 can D. A sleeping character can manifest powers‽

A few seeming errors in your progression.

[littha]

a living wood shield can protect you from disintegrate and pyroclastic dragons

The shield wouldn't be destroyed... you probably would. Also Pyroclastic dragon breath only targets creatures anyway.

living wood tower shield for cover?

Does not help, Tower shields don't provide cover against targeted spells.

The shield does not, however, provide cover against targeted spells; a spellcaster can cast a spell on you by targeting the shield you are holding.

It would save you from the dragon though.

[NiteCyper]

A helpless character is paralyzed, [...] sleeping, [or] unconscious.

A is B, B2, and B3.

A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (-5 modifier).

A is C.

A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed.

C is B.

Fixed that, you had it backwards.

Also, if A = B and A = C, then C = B anyway.

If A = B, A = C, and B = C, then all terms above grant all condition

A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless.

C is B and A.

A paralyzed character [...] can take purely mental actions.

C can D.

B is not necessarily A. B2 isn't necessarily A, B, B3, nor C. In the preceding sentence, B2 interchanged with B3, is. Ergo, an opponent being paralyzed is not premise "to deliver a coup de grace". I don't want to mess with this anymore; I don't want to have to read all of this, right now.

A few seeming errors in your progression.

I didn't think that "A is B" = "A = B", just as "all squares are rectangles" but not vice-versa.

Is there difference between "A is B" and "all As are Bs"? No, "it is traditional to use is rather than are as the copula, hence All A is B rather than All As are Bs."

[zook1shoe]

It would save you from the dragon though.

that's what i meant

but there's probably some feats that might help against the spells too