OOC + Brainstorming

[Ziltoid]

I don't remember if you posted this in the old thread, but how are you treating bloodlines?  The prereq feats for Swiftblade suck... would you accept a custom major bloodline?

What good would that do over, say, a level or two of Fighter/PsyWar/Martial Monk for the bonus feats? At least the latter gives HP/BAB/Skill Points

[sirpercival]

Well, it comes down to a question of whether bloodlines count against ECL or not.

[InnaBinder]

I don't remember if you posted this in the old thread, but how are you treating bloodlines?  The prereq feats for Swiftblade suck... would you accept a custom major bloodline?

What good would that do over, say, a level or two of Fighter/PsyWar/Martial Monk for the bonus feats? At least the latter gives HP/BAB/Skill Points

Bloodlines do wacky things to caster level, depending on interpretation, also.

[Ziltoid]

Well, it comes down to a question of whether bloodlines count against ECL or not.

RAW they do, and aren't eligible for LA buyback, which is why I suggested a martial class dip as an alternative

[sirpercival]

Well, it comes down to a question of whether bloodlines count against ECL or not.

RAW they do, and aren't eligible for LA buyback, which is why I suggested a martial class dip as an alternative

I disagree that RAW is clear.  From the SRD:

Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does

EDIT: There are a million different ways to interpret how bloodlines work, there was even a handbook about it on the old boards.  That's why it's just easier to check with the DM

[Shiki]

Not enough feats even with flaws?

If I do allow custom bloodlines, I'm pretty sure everyone will want to make one for himself, and without XP into the equation here I'm not sure out to balance 'em out of the box although it shouldn't be too hard to find something.

If you were to use a custom one though, what would it look like sirpercival?

[sirpercival]

Of course there aren't enough feats -- there are never enough unless you're allowing antifeats and heroics + DCFS.

I would probably do a Greater Shadow major bloodline, since he already has the Penumbra Bloodline feat... thematically it fits.  Since I won't be going into Master Transmogrifist, I'll go all-out and take Shadow Dragon for Draconic Heritage.

What about something like this?

1st   Hide +2
2nd   Dodge
3rd   Dex +1
4th   Mobility
5th   Shadow affinity +2
6th   Resistance to cold 5 (Ex)
7th   Move Silently +2
8th   Alertness
9th   Cha +1
10th   +2 save vs negative energy effects
11th   Shadow affinity +4
12th   Light fortification
13th   Listen +2
14th   Spring Attack
15th   Wis +1
16th   +2 save vs mind-affecting effects
17th   Shadow affinity +6
18th   Immune to sleep
19th   Search +2
20th   Immune to stunning

That of course is subject to editing. 

[Ziltoid]

Well, it comes down to a question of whether bloodlines count against ECL or not.

RAW they do, and aren't eligible for LA buyback, which is why I suggested a martial class dip as an alternative

I disagree that RAW is clear.  From the SRD:

Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does

EDIT: There are a million different ways to interpret how bloodlines work, there was even a handbook about it on the old boards.  That's why it's just easier to check with the DM

Because
the power gain is gradual over a span of twenty levels, a static
level adjustment doesn’t truly reflect this difference. Instead, a
bloodline character must take one or more levels of “bloodline”
at various points in his career, as noted on Table 1–2: Bloodline
Levels. Before a character with a bloodline reaches the indicated
character level, he must take one class level of “bloodline.”

That precedes that little snippet you posted

Now, to me it seems quite clear that while they don't provide all the benefits of regular class levels, they're still class levels nonetheless (and certainly not LA)
YMMV of course, and asking the DM is never a bad thing


That being said, if Shiki's okay with a free boost, then who am I to complain
(not to mention my Animal Companion is purring in delight at the thought as well)

[sirpercival]

Yes, you have to take the "levels", but they don't increase your "character level".  Do they increase your ECL like LA do?  I agree that RAI you're right, but by RAW it's unclear.

[Ziltoid]

Yes, you have to take the "levels", but they don't increase your "character level".  Do they increase your ECL like LA do?  I agree that RAI you're right, but by RAW it's unclear.

Well, since UA continuously refers to them as 'class levels' I'd say so, but that's just one person's interpretation
But enough of this, let Shiki make the tough calls


That way we can bitch and complain at him if we don't like his decision 

[Shiki]

... him ...

blah

Anyhow, I'll go with what this thread had come with because I agree with it.

1st   Hide +2
2nd   Dodge
3rd   Dex +1
4th   Mobility
5th   Shadow affinity +2
6th   Resistance to cold 5 (Ex)
7th   Move Silently +2
8th   Alertness
9th   Cha +1
10th   +2 save vs negative energy effects
11th   Shadow affinity +4
12th   Light fortification
13th   Listen +2
14th   Spring Attack
15th   Wis +1
16th   +2 save vs mind-affecting effects
17th   Shadow affinity +6
18th   Immune to sleep
19th   Search +2
20th   Immune to stunning

1st   Hide +2
2nd   Dodge
3rd   Dex +1
4th   Resistance to cold 5 (Ex)
5th   Shadow affinity +2
6th   Mobility
7th   Spot +2
8th   +2 save vs mind-affecting effects
9th   Cha +1
10th   Alertness
11th   Shadow affinity +4
12th   Spring Attack
13th   Listen +2
14th   Light fortification
15th   Wis +1
16th   Immunity to sleep
17th   Shadow affinity +6
18th   +2 save vs negative energy effects
19th   Search +2
20th   Immune to stunning

I made a few changes. Would that be fine?

[sirpercival]

So basically that it doesn't count against ECL and isn't an LA -- instead I would pay 3000xp at level 2-3 and then 6000xp and level 5-6 and then 12k xp at level 11-12?  And that would put me at level 3 + 1000xp (since I can't afford a thought bottle )?

Hmm... blergh.  Meh, I like the flavor of it, so even if it drops me behind in the beginning (though with +2 sorc levels that helps!), I'll go for it.  Your adjustments are fine.

[Ziltoid]

... him ...

blah

Sorry, internet and all that


As for the bloodline thing, that link is one big wall-o'-text^tm
Care to sum up your ruling?
-Do Bloodline levels count towards ECL?
-Free, 'Class levels' or similar to LA?
-If the last one, LA-buyback or not?

[Shiki]

So basically that it doesn't count against ECL and isn't an LA -- instead I would pay 3000xp at level 2-3 and then 6000xp and level 5-6 and then 12k xp at level 11-12?  And that would put me at level 3 + 1000xp (since I can't afford a thought bottle )?

Well, you'll be 1 level behind a few times for a bit during your career, but I'll figure out when you should be able to catch up a on everyone as far as levels goes because we don't work with XP.

Hmm... blergh.  Meh, I like the flavor of it, so even if it drops me behind in the beginning (though with +2 sorc levels that helps!), I'll go for it.  Your adjustments are fine.

Great. <:

... him ...

blah

Sorry, internet and all that

You're forgiven, aw.

As for the bloodline thing, that link is one big wall-o'-text^tm
Care to sum up your ruling?
-Do Bloodline levels count towards ECL?
-Free, 'Class levels' or similar to LA?
-If the last one, LA-buyback or not?

-No, except for maximum skill points (i.e.: 1st level 4, 2nd level 5, etc, etc).
-They're not 'class levels' per se, but yes, somewhat similar to LA, although it's more like LA you get as you level.
-I'll figure out when it'll be fine for those who do take bloodlines to catch up with the others, in a similar way to LA-buyback but without XP, since we don't play with XP.

[Shiki]

Hmm, rethinking about it, I'll just disallow bloodlines; it will probably be too much of a hassle for me to keep track of given keeping track every sheets as time goes by plus how I'll give "XP" out. I hope you didn't use too much time on coming with something there sirpercival, if so, sorry.

[sirpercival]

Hmm, rethinking about it, I'll just disallow bloodlines; it will probably be too much of a hassle for me to keep track of given keeping track every sheets as time goes by plus how I'll give "XP" out. I hope you didn't use too much time on coming with something there sirpercival, if so, sorry.

No problem, Shikster.  It's all good   I didn't want to make more work for you, I'm just always super ambitious with my chars, and starting at low level means I have to get used to the fact that I can't have everything I want just yet

[InnaBinder]

Hmm, rethinking about it, I'll just disallow bloodlines; it will probably be too much of a hassle for me to keep track of given keeping track every sheets as time goes by plus how I'll give "XP" out. I hope you didn't use too much time on coming with something there sirpercival, if so, sorry.

No problem, Shikster.  It's all good   I didn't want to make more work for you, I'm just always super ambitious with my chars, and starting at low level means I have to get used to the fact that I can't have everything I want just yet

Godhood will have to come later, sirpercival.

[sirpercival]

Hmm, rethinking about it, I'll just disallow bloodlines; it will probably be too much of a hassle for me to keep track of given keeping track every sheets as time goes by plus how I'll give "XP" out. I hope you didn't use too much time on coming with something there sirpercival, if so, sorry.

No problem, Shikster.  It's all good   I didn't want to make more work for you, I'm just always super ambitious with my chars, and starting at low level means I have to get used to the fact that I can't have everything I want just yet

Godhood will have to come later, sirpercival.

Oh, Druzg doesn't need godhood... Slippers of Battledancing would be nice, though

[Ziltoid]

Hmm, rethinking about it, I'll just disallow bloodlines; it will probably be too much of a hassle for me to keep track of given keeping track every sheets as time goes by plus how I'll give "XP" out. I hope you didn't use too much time on coming with something there sirpercival, if so, sorry.

No problem, Shikster.  It's all good   I didn't want to make more work for you, I'm just always super ambitious with my chars, and starting at low level means I have to get used to the fact that I can't have everything I want just yet

That sounds all too familiar 

[sirpercival]

Shiki, how do you feel about Heartfire Fanner (Dragon 314)?

I'm envisioning combining Polymorph (into something with lots of natural attacks, like a dragon) + DFI + Snowflake Wardance + slippers of battledancing + Swiftblade 9 (Perpetual Options) + Arcane Strike.