Author Topic: Why are Undead so hated?  (Read 47713 times)

Offline skydragonknight

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 2660
    • View Profile
Re: Why are Undead so hated?
« Reply #60 on: June 16, 2012, 09:00:31 PM »
Yup. Baelorns. There's certainly undead not worth hating. It would be silly to argue that every undead is worth hating, but "undead are generally hated because most are either evil or 'make no bones about' who/how often they kill" seems accurate enough.
Hmm.

Offline veekie

  • Spinner of Fortunes
  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 5423
  • Chaos Dice
    • View Profile
Re: Why are Undead so hated?
« Reply #61 on: June 17, 2012, 02:07:30 AM »
A Planatar called Avamerin in Elder Evils, worships Sertrous. Still has the Good subtype.

One thing I noted in the post above was that being aggressive and predatory imply evil, there are a lot of predatory creatures out there and I am sure they are not all evil.
Predation does not necessarily mean evil yeah, but at the same time predation upon sentient beings has a strong tendency to reside in an evil creature.

Ghouls are actually pretty ok in that light. They are ultimately, just extremely ravenous carnivores. Theres no requirement in their feeding habits to eat living people or even people at all, they just need corpses(and anyone who eats meat is eating a corpse to begin with). The only reason to attack people at all is self defense, territory and reproduction. Or poor impulse control.

On the other hand a vampire must be ok on some level with regularly harming people, if not necessarily always killing them. And predatory creatures that feed on sentient creaturess out of malicious intent, of course, are feeding BECAUSE they are evil, rather than because they need to.

As for liches, the process definitely requires evil, but they don't necessarily have to stay that way. Pretty unlikely to turn over a new leaf though.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline nijineko

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 2413
  • two strange quarks short of a graviton....
    • View Profile
    • TwinSeraphim
Re: Why are Undead so hated?
« Reply #62 on: June 17, 2012, 07:27:48 PM »
...Ghouls are actually pretty ok in that light. They are ultimately, just extremely ravenous carnivores....

scavengers and/or detritivores, technically.

Offline littha

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2952
  • +1 Holy Muffin
    • View Profile
Re: Why are Undead so hated?
« Reply #63 on: June 17, 2012, 07:30:43 PM »
Wow, managed to put your response in the quote box and got the quote authors mixed up.  :lol :D

Offline whitetyger009

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 161
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: Why are Undead so hated?
« Reply #64 on: June 19, 2012, 12:08:51 AM »
the point has been made conclusively several times why undead as a rule and the creation of them is an evil act.  in addition to that the description of the negative energy plane in the DMG page 157 describes it with evil qualities.  now those of you who have pointed out that decay is part of the natural order of things are right but that doesnt make it any less evil.  more the point evil is a neccessary part of the world.  the qualities ascribed to the negative energy plane (and therefore negative energy itself) are not good things.  if you make a choice to go off on a tangent saying 'its netural' that is fine, but it doesn't change the rules as they have been written for years.  its not just D&D that makes undead evil.  almost every rpg out there does the same and places the same conentations on making undead.  oh sure i will not argue that in some selective cases there can be nonevil undead.  that doesn't change the fact (yes FACT according to printed material) that the vast majority of undead are evil. 

if you want to make some crazy rules about how the game and the interaction of the planes work then that is your business and you have fun with it.  however in doing so you have moved away from the rules as they are written and many players are not going to be interested in drifting off with you.  the more this thread has gone on the more clear it has become that the side that wants to justify thier view of a neutral plane of negative energy and neutral undead are going to do so no matter what printed material is produced for them.  the individuals who have pushed this belife have twisted or out right ignored the material in an effort to prove thier argument.  the other side which has used the printed material to show the whys and hows. 

so since i have delt with people like the 'justifyers' in real life i know exactly how to deal with this now.
i am done with this thread  :fu

i would suggest that anyone who wants to use the books and printed material to back up thier argument to also depart as you are never going to make the other side give any compromise that doesn't make them right. :banghead

Offline linklord231

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3352
  • The dice are trying to kill me
    • View Profile
Re: Why are Undead so hated?
« Reply #65 on: June 19, 2012, 01:13:38 AM »
On the contrary, if you argue that the plane of Negative Energy is Evil aligned, then it is you who have moved away from the rules.  Just because the plane is entropic does not make it evil. 
Now, just to make it abundantly clear, I'm talking about the Undead only within the context of D&D.  For the moment, I'm disregarding any existing notions about undead in other media, other RPGs, or even from traditional myths.  Further, I'm mostly talking about mindless undead, because as was discussed earlier intelligent undead have the ability to make their own choices about alignment.

Within the context of D&D, there is no reason for any mindless creature to be Evil, unless it is literally made out of Evil (such as outsiders and the like).  Mindless creatures operate only on instinct, and thus have no moral agency.  They cannot make the distinction between Good and Evil, so they must be Neutral. 
Negative energy is not Evil.  It is Neutral.  This is established fact, because no matter how "evil" sounding the description of the plane is, it does not have the Minor or Major Evil-Dominant planar trait.  Casting Inflict Wounds is not an Evil act in and of itself, nor is it even one of the spells granted by the Evil Domain. 
If the above points are true, then why are mindless undead "Always Neutral Evil?"  They have no moral agency, nor are they animated by an Evil force or have the Evil subtype.  The answer to this is because the designer had a preconceived notion about how Skeletons should behave, and aligned them accordingly.  It really is as simple as that. 

So, this creates two distinct pictures of the world.  If you believe that the Negative Energy Plane is Neutral aligned (which is supported by the rules), then you should drop the alignment requirement on Skellies and Zombies.  They're as Neutral as golems and other mindless beings that exist only to follow orders, and an uncontrolled skeleton will just sit there and do nothing until someone takes control over it.  Furthermore, the [Evil] tag should be dropped from Animate Dead, because you're only creating a harmless puppet, not bringing Evil forth into the world.
If you believe that Skeletons are Evil (which is also supported by the rules), then you should change the Negative Energy Plane to be mildly Evil dominant and add the [Evil] descriptor to any spell that uses negative energy to function.  You should also change the Positive Energy Plane to be mildly Good dominant, just for verisimilitude.  Under this depiction of the world, an uncontrolled Skeleton will go and attack the most vibrant life-form it can find, whether it's plants, animal, humans, or whatever. 
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline veekie

  • Spinner of Fortunes
  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 5423
  • Chaos Dice
    • View Profile
Re: Why are Undead so hated?
« Reply #66 on: June 19, 2012, 01:19:57 AM »
If the above points are true, then why are mindless undead "Always Neutral Evil?"  They have no moral agency, nor are they animated by an Evil force or have the Evil subtype.  The answer to this is because the designer had a preconceived notion about how Skeletons should behave, and aligned them accordingly.  It really is as simple as that.
Mind you, it might be because the spell used to create them is Evil(that is, the undead are evil because they are generated by an evil spell, not that the process of animating the dead, or using negative energy is inherently evil)
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline Captnq

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1602
  • Haters gonna hate. Dragons gonna drag.
    • View Profile
    • Ask the Captain
Re: Why are Undead so hated?
« Reply #67 on: June 20, 2012, 01:30:09 AM »
On the contrary, if you argue that the plane of Negative Energy is Evil aligned, then it is you who have moved away from the rules.  Just because the plane is entropic does not make it evil. 
Now, just to make it abundantly clear, I'm talking about the Undead only within the context of D&D.  For the moment, I'm disregarding any existing notions about undead in other media, other RPGs, or even from traditional myths.  Further, I'm mostly talking about mindless undead, because as was discussed earlier intelligent undead have the ability to make their own choices about alignment.

He's not saying it's evil aligned. Planar alignment is a trait planes have. He's saying that interacting with the plane usually falls under the parameters of what evil does. It's hard to come up with a good use for the negative material plane. Okay, you can come up with good uses, but for the most part, the morality of most uses for negative material plane energy are evil. But since the use of negative material planes is directed by the user, not the plane, the evil usually is with it's wielder, not the plane itself.

Think of it as a statistical bell curve. Sure there are good uses for negative material energy. Most uses are squarely on the evil side.

Within the context of D&D, there is no reason for any mindless creature to be Evil,

Uh, it's a game mechanic.

Look, under 2nd edition, zombies and skeletons were neutral. That led to undead who were mindless being neutral. That ment that if you were willing to become mindless, your alignment shifted to neutral. That ment you could get around holy world and unholy word and other crap like that. Most Undead (except for balnorns, who are undead powered by the positive material plane) are evil alignment so that they are uniformly effected by the same spells that effect targets by alignment.

Imagine a bunch of zombie minions that were ordered to skull fuck a bunch of orphans. You use Holy word, but DAMN, they aren't evil and ignore it. Doesn't make much sense in an objective morality universe.
If you have questions about 3.5 D&D, you might want to look at the:
Encyclopedia Vinculum Draconis

Currently: Podcasting

Offline linklord231

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3352
  • The dice are trying to kill me
    • View Profile
Re: Why are Undead so hated?
« Reply #68 on: June 20, 2012, 03:56:56 AM »
Should a Golem be effected by a Holy Word when he's skullfucking orphans?  What about when he's pulling orphans out of a flaming building and someone casts Blasphemy?  If a mindless creature does nothing but follow orders, then he's objectively Neutral.  It doesn't matter what his actions actually are.
Every other mindless creature is Neutral aligned, unless you slap a template like Fiendish on it.  What makes undead different? 

Yeah, in older editions you could be mindless to avoid alignment-targeting effects.  But going mindless turns you into an NPC, so it's kind of a moot point.  Besides, you can do that in 3.5 just by writing "True Neutral" on your character sheet. 

the point has been made conclusively several times why undead as a rule and the creation of them is an evil act.  in addition to that the description of the negative energy plane in the DMG page 157 describes it with evil qualities.  now those of you who have pointed out that decay is part of the natural order of things are right but that doesnt make it any less evil.  more the point evil is a neccessary part of the world.  the qualities ascribed to the negative energy plane (and therefore negative energy itself) are not good things.  if you make a choice to go off on a tangent saying 'its netural' that is fine, but it doesn't change the rules as they have been written for years.  its not just D&D that makes undead evil.  almost every rpg out there does the same and places the same conentations on making undead.  oh sure i will not argue that in some selective cases there can be nonevil undead.  that doesn't change the fact (yes FACT according to printed material) that the vast majority of undead are evil. 

if you want to make some crazy rules about how the game and the interaction of the planes work then that is your business and you have fun with it.  however in doing so you have moved away from the rules as they are written and many players are not going to be interested in drifting off with you.  the more this thread has gone on the more clear it has become that the side that wants to justify thier view of a neutral plane of negative energy and neutral undead are going to do so no matter what printed material is produced for them.  the individuals who have pushed this belife have twisted or out right ignored the material in an effort to prove thier argument.  the other side which has used the printed material to show the whys and hows. 

so since i have delt with people like the 'justifyers' in real life i know exactly how to deal with this now.
i am done with this thread  :fu

i would suggest that anyone who wants to use the books and printed material to back up thier argument to also depart as you are never going to make the other side give any compromise that doesn't make them right. :banghead

Yeah, I'm pretty sure he's saying the Plane of Negative Energy as a whole is Evil. 
I agree with you that Negative Energy can very easily be used for Evil.  But so can Fire - it's arguable just as destructive, and most spells that have the [Fire] descriptor are offensive spells.  As you said yourself, the evil is with the wielder.  That's why Inflict Wounds doesn't have the [Evil] descriptor, even though it runs on negative energy.  So I ask again, if using negative energy isn't inherently wrong, why is using it to create a mindless servant who exists only to follow orders inherently wrong?
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline littha

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2952
  • +1 Holy Muffin
    • View Profile
Re: Why are Undead so hated?
« Reply #69 on: June 20, 2012, 04:09:48 AM »
The basic reason mindless undead are evil in 3.5 is so that paladins can smite them...

Offline zugschef

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 699
    • View Profile
Re: Why are Undead so hated?
« Reply #70 on: June 21, 2012, 01:30:30 AM »
this thread makes me hate undead even more...

Offline Captnq

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1602
  • Haters gonna hate. Dragons gonna drag.
    • View Profile
    • Ask the Captain
Re: Why are Undead so hated?
« Reply #71 on: June 21, 2012, 11:55:34 PM »
The basic reason mindless undead are evil in 3.5 is so that paladins can smite them...

Bingo. Objective morality. It's so that it's clear who the bad guys are. When the necromancer digs up an entire graveyard and animates all the skeletons of your dead loved ones and sets them to digging and flattening a road so that you can transport goods more easily from one city to another, then using them to build a bridge across a ravine you wouldn't want to risk any living person's life building, then have them transport medicine across a snow covered mountain to a remote area... The necromancer is doing good things with those walking pile of bones. But paladins don't want to have to use, "Detect morality" It's detect evil. Smite away!

Undead are evil because the rules make them evil. Asking why undead are evil is like asking why does a fireball do 1d6 hp a caster level, but maxes out at 10d6? I'm a 32nd level spell caster! Why can't it do 32d6? Why? Because that's the rules. It's part of the game balance of the universe. If evil and good are subjective in the D&D setting, you aren't playing D&D anymore.
If you have questions about 3.5 D&D, you might want to look at the:
Encyclopedia Vinculum Draconis

Currently: Podcasting

Offline littha

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2952
  • +1 Holy Muffin
    • View Profile
Re: Why are Undead so hated?
« Reply #72 on: June 22, 2012, 12:19:31 AM »
Wrong. It has nothing to do with morality or philosophy at all. It has a purely gameist reasoning.

Offline Captnq

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1602
  • Haters gonna hate. Dragons gonna drag.
    • View Profile
    • Ask the Captain
Re: Why are Undead so hated?
« Reply #73 on: June 22, 2012, 12:29:08 AM »
Wrong. It has nothing to do with morality or philosophy at all. It has a purely gameist reasoning.

Please read book of vile darkness.
If you have questions about 3.5 D&D, you might want to look at the:
Encyclopedia Vinculum Draconis

Currently: Podcasting

Offline sirpercival

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10855
  • you can't escape the miles
    • View Profile
Re: Why are Undead so hated?
« Reply #74 on: June 22, 2012, 12:34:43 AM »
Wrong. It has nothing to do with morality or philosophy at all. It has a purely gameist reasoning.

Please read book of vile darkness.

Captnq I think you're missing what people are discussing.  They are asking, "why did WotC make the rules so that mindless undead are evil?  does that make sense?  how should it be?"  And you are answering with, "undead are evil because WotC made the rules so that they are evil."
I am the assassin of productivity

(member in good standing of the troll-feeders guild)

It's begun — my things have overgrown the previous sig.

Offline zugschef

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 699
    • View Profile
Re: Why are Undead so hated?
« Reply #75 on: June 22, 2012, 12:35:57 AM »
they did so because they can

Offline whitetyger009

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 161
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: Why are Undead so hated?
« Reply #76 on: June 22, 2012, 03:56:15 AM »
yea i know i said i was done with this but i found this quote and thought it fit with all the diluted people on this specific thread.



the living are jerks.  lying, untrustworthy jackasses, every one of them, and everyone knows this too.  so logically the undead must be the opposite of that.  caring, sensitive, honest souls who are oppressed by the living majority and their negative stereotypes.

Offline whitetyger009

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 161
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: Why are Undead so hated?
« Reply #77 on: June 22, 2012, 04:11:29 AM »
why is it called desecration when you dig up bodies if its not a bad thing to do?

Offline linklord231

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3352
  • The dice are trying to kill me
    • View Profile
Re: Why are Undead so hated?
« Reply #78 on: June 22, 2012, 04:22:24 AM »
why is it called desecration when you dig up bodies if its not a bad thing to do?

Desecrate has a very specific meaning in D&D, and it has nothing to do with digging up bodies.  It gives bonuses to undead because it gives a location a stronger tie to the Negative Energy Plane, which is what fuels their un-life force. 
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline skydragonknight

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 2660
    • View Profile
Re: Why are Undead so hated?
« Reply #79 on: June 22, 2012, 05:03:46 AM »
Odd that a spell imbuing an area with negative energy has the [Evil] tag if negative energy is not associated with evil...
Hmm.