Author Topic: Why does no-one optimize Teamwork benefits?  (Read 18903 times)

Offline Amechra

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Why does no-one optimize Teamwork benefits?
« on: April 29, 2012, 10:48:39 PM »
Seriously, they are all free (as long as you meet the requirements, none of which are too strenuous), and some of them are AWESOME (one of them allows your entire party to Trance like elves. Another allows you to treat a creature that two members of your party are flanking as if you are all flanking them for the purpose of melee attacks, and adds the "Rogue" levels of your ENTIRE PARTY for the purpose of seeing if you can ignore Uncanny Dodge. Other than that, you get more standard fare like Improved Evasion vs. spells cast by your own spellcasters, getting an additional bonus to hit if you are flanking the party Ranger's favored enemy with them, and another that allows you to smack your enemies with some extra damage with your sneak attackers even if they are immune.)

Besides that, some of the Companion Spirits are pretty damn useful, if a bit situational.

However, I find nothing about them when I search the forums; nothing!
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Offline Zionpopsickle

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Re: Why does no-one optimize Teamwork benefits?
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2012, 11:03:21 PM »
Seriously, they are all free (as long as you meet the requirements, none of which are too strenuous), and some of them are AWESOME (one of them allows your entire party to Trance like elves. Another allows you to treat a creature that two members of your party are flanking as if you are all flanking them for the purpose of melee attacks, and adds the "Rogue" levels of your ENTIRE PARTY for the purpose of seeing if you can ignore Uncanny Dodge. Other than that, you get more standard fare like Improved Evasion vs. spells cast by your own spellcasters, getting an additional bonus to hit if you are flanking the party Ranger's favored enemy with them, and another that allows you to smack your enemies with some extra damage with your sneak attackers even if they are immune.)

Besides that, some of the Companion Spirits are pretty damn useful, if a bit situational.

However, I find nothing about them when I search the forums; nothing!

Probably because they are very hidden away in odder sections of books and aren't all that well known.

I think the other thing is that they have such low costs that you are generally free to simply take them without needing to build into them at all, so there is little need to actually optimize around them.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Why does no-one optimize Teamwork benefits?
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2012, 11:23:51 PM »
Yeah I agree, there isn't much optimization. They are pretty lame bonuses and if you've got the benefit then you've got the benefit you know? Mostly I'd think awareness would suffice.

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« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 01:06:30 AM by SorO_Lost »

Offline Amechra

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Re: Why does no-one optimize Teamwork benefits?
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2012, 11:26:12 PM »
Heroes of Battle and ?Complete Adventurer? have some. I'm not sure about Cityscape...
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Offline snakeman830

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Re: Why does no-one optimize Teamwork benefits?
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2012, 11:45:03 PM »
I think Dungeonscape and PHB2?  Or is it DMG2?
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Why does no-one optimize Teamwork benefits?
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2012, 12:55:01 AM »
PHBII, DMGII, Heroes of Battle, and Dungeonscape, any other books have them?

Offline Balmas

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Re: Why does no-one optimize Teamwork benefits?
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2012, 01:16:42 AM »
PHBII, Dungeonscape, I think Complete Adventurer have them.

To answer, I think that the reason they don't come up much is because usually when we minmax, we're thinking of a single character.  That's why every fighter actually buys gear when it would be so much cheaper to leech off the party cleric.
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Offline Amechra

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Re: Why does no-one optimize Teamwork benefits?
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2012, 01:21:18 AM »
I had not seen the PHBII ones!

Team Shield Maneuver and Wall of Steel can make for a pretty damn good Bodyguard type character.

I'd like everyone to remember that you can train animals in any of these...

I LOL'd when I realized that one of those builds based off of getting the highest Handle Animal modifier could train any of their uber creatures with one of these; imagine training a herd of cows with the Heavy Cavalry "trick".

Or you could make a group of archers that shoot arrows like a sir.
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Offline Nytemare3701

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Re: Why does no-one optimize Teamwork benefits?
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2012, 04:09:55 AM »
Or you could make a group of archers that shoot arrows like a sir.

Trained commoners with crossbows. The focus fire would be insane.

Offline Prime32

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Re: Why does no-one optimize Teamwork benefits?
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2012, 04:05:47 PM »
Or you could make a group of archers that shoot arrows like a sir.

Trained commoners with crossbows. The focus fire would be insane.
Throw in a low-level marshal/dragon shaman/DFA bard and you have some creatures punching way above their normal weight. IIRC there's a maximum of eight members in a team - how do dvati interact with that? :p

Offline Quillwraith

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Re: Why does no-one optimize Teamwork benefits?
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2012, 04:16:57 PM »
Use this with nanobots.

Offline Amechra

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Re: Why does no-one optimize Teamwork benefits?
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2012, 05:01:54 PM »
Use this with nanobots.

You know, I was actually thinking about that earlier... and you know the best thing?

You can be on an unlimited number of teams.

Let me repeat that:

You can be on an unlimited number of teams. AND THERE IS A SKILL TRICK TO TEACH A TEAMWORK BENEFIT.

Sure, they need to already qualify, but some Psychic Reformation on that tiger...

Some nice Teamwork Benefits for your Nanobots:

Gaze Aversion: Pick some random nanobot that is most likely immune to the enemy's gaze attack. Then just grab something that mitigates a miss chance, and go Medusa hunting!


Friendly Fire Evasion: This one goes without saying.

Door Procedures: Why not?

Field Medic Training: Toss the Healing Hands skill trick onto one of them, and you're fine.

Joint Grapple: HOLY FUCK! I'm sorry, I just think a +28 to Grappling for minimum investment is kinda nice, ya know?

Snap Out of It: I just got 7 saves vs. your silly Compulsion effect.

Spellcaster Guardian: "Oh, that's adorable; I have a pool of 7 disposable bodies that you have to run through before you can hit me."

Superior Team Efforts/Team Melee Tactics: I can see this as being AMAZING for a Kenku Truenamer of some sort.

Other than these, if your Nanobots have at least 4 HD, you can summon up a Guardian Spirit (DMG II, right after the Teamwork Benefits section); in it, there are some pseudo-free options that suck as a group-wide effect, but are really cool if you are only affecting your Nanobots.
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Why does no-one optimize Teamwork benefits?
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2012, 05:14:16 PM »
Wow... I'd heard of these, but hardly paid attention to them in the past. Many of them are quite good! Is that list of requirements in the table exhaustive? Or do they require the leader to spend a feat on them or something?
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Offline Garryl

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Re: Why does no-one optimize Teamwork benefits?
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2012, 05:18:40 PM »
The only ones that require a feat specifically say so (there are a few, but they're on that table). If you want the rules for teamwork benefits, two sets of them were previewed online.

That's the listing from CrystalKeep, right?

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Why does no-one optimize Teamwork benefits?
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2012, 06:18:31 PM »
Kinda gives a new category to Skills.

Skills you didn't use to need 1 rank in,
but it's so stupid proof to go ahead and get
these goodies, you put the 1 rank in afterall.
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Offline StreamOfTheSky

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Re: Why does no-one optimize Teamwork benefits?
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2012, 11:07:33 PM »
My group loves teamwork benefits, I think several of them are pretty awesome.  As someone mentioned, Wall of Steel is amazing for a bodyguard character.  I had a dual shield user make a lot of use out of that, Shield Block maneuver from ToB, and the Wings of Cover spell (Draconic bloodline, so he could use it on others; he actually never once used it for himself).

In another game, we had 3 arcanists all w/ Improved Familiars, so the familiars used wands of low level area spells (like Entangle and Grease) to ramp up area spell DCs w/ Spell Barrage.

Other goodies:

Infiltration: In a game where stealth is actually useful (ie, Darkstalker is available), the allies being able to see where you are alone is invaluable!  The faster stealth is just a nice bonus.

Snap Out of It: Not everyone can use a wand of Prot. From Evil, and some powerful compulsions the DM may not allow it to work on.  Again, basically free entry.

Search Team: In a game where it isn't all handwaved away, cutting down your search time by 4 or 5 by having the whole party use the specialized guy's bonus means more time for buff spells to stay up between fights.

Friendly Fire Evasion: They're so easy to be a team member for, it's basically a gimme.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Why does no-one optimize Teamwork benefits?
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2012, 12:11:59 AM »
That's the listing from CrystalKeep, right?
Actually I got a hit form google for ENWorld where some guy posted a bunch online. I reformatted them (string.replace ftw) and added Dungeonscape. Near as I can tell, it's copypaste right out of the book, which is nice since my DMGII (or PHBII?) isn't OCRed and I sure wasn't typing them out.

Offline Captnq

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Re: Why does no-one optimize Teamwork benefits?
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2012, 12:12:29 AM »
Why?

Because Players Suck.

No. Seriously. I've ran for Hundreds of people and I've only found maybe three people who work together.

Now this one team... We just started 3.5. I started running Rappan Athak. Nobody read it, but they wanted me to run it EXACTLY AS WRITTEN. Don't add anything. Don't take anything away. None of my infamious side plots. No giving anyone a back story. Nothing. Standard Dungeon Crawl.

They teared that thing apart. It was a thing of beauty. They took the locks off the doors and sold them. They took the Scroll on the surface level, used the gate and wish to make a permanent link back and forth between a warehouse in the main campaign city and a portable hoop they could toss crap through. They took every copper piece. They killed every monster.

They found a way to kill the indistructable elder brain
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They used the money to bring back from the dead every single skull they could find that speak with dead revieled was LN, LG, NG, CG. They built a frickin army, went from 1st level to 18th, went after orcus, used Wish and Miracle to skip over the final death trap and transport their army on top of Orcus.

The rules said he laughs for the first two rounds.

He never made it to the second.

But that? That was the exception. I am proud to say I never kill a player, they kill each other. I've had healers ignore the fallen and go for the gold then wonder why people are pissed off they got killed. I've had players get pissed, wait for 6 hours, then after the game was over and there was no chance to fix anything, throw a frickin' shit fit.

Like I said, I know of about three people who have worked together as a team. That's it.
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Offline Rejakor

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Re: Why does no-one optimize Teamwork benefits?
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2012, 11:26:43 AM »
Because I fucking hate those things.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Why does no-one optimize Teamwork benefits?
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2012, 08:05:26 PM »
Man, these things are not internally balanced.

Cunning Ambush, Improved  ==  full action surprise rounds.
I wonder a good way to induce this happening as often as possible?!


I could see a Druid taking a big penalty to Heal checks,
to run around the battlefield doing duck duck goose,
and then the War Dog licks everybody on the nose
to ~autosucceed the heal check.
(too fluff-y ?)
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